This is my daddy's station. I'm Pooh, classic radio like you always wished it could be, 101.1 FM, eager. 101.1 FM is owned and operated by the Independence Foundation Trust as a non-profit community service. 101.1 FM is owned and operated by the Independence Foundation Trust as a non-profit community service. 101.1 FM is owned and operated by the Independence Foundation Trust as a non-profit community service. If you are anywhere near these theaters, please go see Waco, The Rules of Engagement. It will be showing in Dallas and Austin, Texas at the following locations on these days. The USA Film Festival. That's the USA Film Festival. The AMC Glen Lakes Theater at 9450 North Central Expressway, Dallas, Texas. The number is 214-855-6286. It will be showing Monday, April 21st, 1997 at 7.15 p.m. Once again, at the AMC Glen Lakes Theater, 9450 North Central Expressway, Dallas, Texas. The number is 214-855-6286. It will be showing Monday, April 21st, 1997 at 7.15 p.m. It will also be showing Friday, May 2nd through Thursday, May 8, 1997 at the Dolby Theater, 2021, Guadalupe, Austin, Texas. The number is 512-505-0105. That's 512-505-0105. That's the Dolby Theater, 2021, Guadalupe, Austin, Texas. It will be showing Friday, May 2nd through Thursday, May 8, 1997. Don't miss it. Even the liberal press and the hard left-wing socialists come out of that theater angry and sometimes crying because of what they have discovered about the lies that we've been told. And this, folks, this is a major production that uses the government's own testimony, the government's own films, the government's own forward-looking infrared film that they made at Waco, and it is devastating. Also, I will be speaking in Porterville, California, Saturday, April 26th, 1997, from 1 until 7 p.m. And also on April the 27th, 1997, beginning at 1 o'clock, and we'll go however long it takes until I get tired, to tell you the truth. It's $10 per person. For more information, call Doyle Chambley, 209-781-0374. That's 209-781-0374. The number of people who are mobbing this event has exceeded expectations, and that's why we're going to do another one on Sunday also. So if you want to make sure that you have a seat, you better call right now because nobody can guarantee that you'll even be able to get in the door at this date. Porterville is approximately 50 miles northeast of Bakersfield, California. Again, the number is 209-781-0374. Make note of the World Wide Freedom Radio Network programming. All times are Eastern Daylight Time, Monday through Thursday, 5 until 7 p.m. Excuse me, that's Monday through Friday. 5 until 7 p.m., the hour of the time, with yours truly, William Cooper. Monday and Tuesday nights, 9 until 10 p.m., Quest for Health, with Michael Cottingham. Thursday, 9 to 11 p.m., Home Satellite Radio Show, with Dan Morgan. Fridays, 9 until 11 p.m., Friday Night Live, with Gary Bourgeois. Saturdays, 11 p.m., until 1 a.m., American Exposé, with Chris Gerner. And Sundays, beginning at noon, will be special programming funded by generous donations for the telephone satellite uplink by our loyal listening audience. Also, we take great pride in featuring unscheduled special programming with the highest quality in entertainment, historical, and educational broadcasting. And those of you who have been listening to it, you know that that's true. Now, to dispel some rumors very quickly, ladies and gentlemen, there are some children out there who insist upon hearing either what they want to hear or just making up blatant lies, or they just like to pass on rumors. The Worldwide Freedom Radio Network is not in danger. The Worldwide Freedom Radio Network is not going off the air at any time soon. I can tell you that right now. The Worldwide Freedom Radio Network is not and will not be funded by Swiss America Trading, and so its future does not depend upon whether Swiss America Trading sponsors the hour of the time or not. The hour of the time, approximately the 7th of May, we'll cut back to one hour each day versus the two hours that it has been running. Okay? We're not going off the air. And even if we had to cut back drastically, we would not go off the air. It would just be reduced programming time for the hour of the time only. So, you little children, find your mother, get your diapers changed, get a fresh bottle, and take a nap while we adults get busy with what we do the very best. And that is not spread rumors, not phone-it lies, and not make up stories and run around like little children with our heads cut off. Okay. Here goes, folks, what you've all been waiting for. Don't go away. I'll be right back. This, I guess, has become her theme song on this broadcast. And in just a few minutes, we'll be back with Michelle Marie Moore, the author of Oklahoma City Day One. And we're going to rehash this whole thing from the beginning, and you're going to hear some startling new information toward the end of the second hour, probably, and maybe even before that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Now the things they followed Jonah by As she came right through the dark No more to keep up on break And no more man to get her through this darkness They're a smoking night She said I'm tired of the war I want the kind of work I had before With a wedding Something white to wear From the war in Africa Michelle, are you there? Yes, I'm here. Welcome to the Hour of the Time once again. Thank you, Bill. Glad to be here. Well, let's not waste any time because We've got an awful lot to talk about. Let's start at the beginning. The morning that you called me and woke me from a sound sleep And told me that there had been a tremendous explosion in Oklahoma City And I immediately put you to work. What happened after that? Oh, good grief. You threw me. I wanted to say something else first. Well, why don't you get into this a little bit And then you can say whatever you want. All right. All right. Now what? All right. We're talking about day one. Day one. Right after I called you. Right. Oh, I had to go to Oklahoma City right away to go to work. And I was working in my car and I had an opportunity all day to drive around Oklahoma City And observe what was happening and monitor events on the radio. And by mid-afternoon we were beginning to see contradictions between the official report coming out of the national news media And local reports of local originations. It was like two different events were happening. And that was the beginning of the questions we started asking. Actually, the discrepancy between the reports were pretty big discrepancies. Well, yeah. The first major one was that eyewitnesses immediately after the blast were recording and being interviewed on radio Saying they'd heard, you know, multiple explosions, two explosions. And then those disappeared from the airwaves. And later on we were told, now we want everybody to understand there was just one explosion and so forth and so on. So the witnesses of multiple explosions were shoved out of the picture not to be heard from for a long, long time. And then by 5 in the afternoon, AGC National News was reporting 81 dead and 17 children at a time that we only had 22 dead here from the medical examiner's office. So they just made that number up. In truth, there were a lot of dead, but nobody had verified that yet. And nobody had released any figures even remotely resembling what the national news was putting out. Oh, right. Well, we didn't know what the final death toll was until May the 4th. Right. But on that first day, around supper time, the total number of bodies they'd been able to find was only 22. But AGC National News came out at 5 o'clock and said 81 dead, 17 children. And then, of course, there's a six-hour time difference, but approximately the same time the London Telegraph ran their headline that said 78 dead and the car bomb did it and all this stuff. And they were blaming Middle Eastern terrorists. Yeah. Well, these erroneous reports of the number of dead initially showed up on ABC News first, and then the other networks and national news picked it up. But they were serving an agenda because that matches exactly what other casualties? The Waco massacre death. Exactly right. So right from the beginning, the propaganda communist news networks were attempting to make a link between the bombing in Oklahoma City and the Waco massacre casualty figures because without even quoting the official casualty figures put out by the medical examiner in Oklahoma City, they gave the exact number of final dead that occurred at Waco, Texas in 1993 on April the 19th. Yes, and this was after Ray Blakeney, the spokesman public affairs director for the medical examiner's office, had met with the press and said, look, look, the only official numbers of bodies recovered and bodies identified are going to come from me, meaning him. Mm-hmm. And he scheduled at that time press conferences at 10 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon every single day with those guys. And at the very, very first, he said, you know, the numbers are wild and crazy. The only official numbers you're getting are from me. And in spite of that announcement, they still just sort of made things up to make their little signal to whomever they wanted to convey that. Right. And that's one of the first indications that we had the press was not only being controlled but was engaging in blatant, obvious propaganda that anybody who was familiar with what happened on those two dates would spot instantly. And that's really the main thing that I wanted to draw out from this first day was the fact that the communist news networks immediately began a blatant lie, even though they had been told by the medical examiner what the truth was concerning the count of the dead on that day, in order to intentionally link the Oklahoma City bombing with the Waco massacre, which had occurred two years earlier on the same date. Oh, right. And it was by 3 in the afternoon that it was already being linked to the Waco massacre. It was even suggested on the radio that a survivor of the Waco massacre might have done the dirty deed. It was just amazing. And the media was definitely being rounded up and placed under some tight constraints later in the afternoon when it was officially announced that the entire investigation and all official news releases would be coming through the FBI. And after that first press conference at 5 in the afternoon on April the 19th, there were no more official announcements of anything that came from local origination. It all started with the FBI and filtered down from there. Yes. About three days ago, a reporter from Time Magazine called me and wanted an interview, and I told him, no, you have no credibility with me or anybody that I know or with our organization. And he had the guts to ask me why. I guess he's out of touch with Rehappity. He certainly is, but he gets no interview with me. Okay. What was it you wanted to say now when we started that you sort of got sidetracked from? I apologize for that. I did. I wanted to jump into this before we even got on Oklahoma City because it's a continuation of your announcements of theaters. Okay. Where people can see Waco, the rules of engagement. Wonderful. Go ahead with it. Okay. I've got three more for your listening audience. This one is in Sebastopol, California. Wait a minute. Hold on. You've got Connie while she's giving these. Would you please copy them down? Go ahead. All right. Sebastopol, California. Showings will begin on April the 26th, 2-6th. At Sebastopol Cinemas, 6868 McKinley Street, Sebastopol, California. And the phone number is 707-829-3921. And in Atlanta, Georgia, on June the 1st, the Atlanta Film Festival will be showing Waco the rules of engagement at the AMC 5th, that's P-H-I-P-P-S, 5th Plaza 14. The address is 3500 Peach Tree Road, Northeast, Atlanta, Georgia. That's across the street from the Lenox Mall on June the 1st. Then I do not know where the human rights film festival is being held. I'll find that out. It'll be showing there on June the 6th of the 8th. And in Boston, Massachusetts, Waco the rules of engagement will open on June the 27th at the Coolidge Center. And I do not have an address yet. We'll get that to you closer to the time. Okay. But that's good that it's playing in Atlanta. That's big time. Yes, it is. The Atlanta Film Festival is big time on Peach Tree Street. Miss Pity Pat's just going to have a heart attack. Oh, yeah. I can tell you that right now. So I'm sorry for that little diversion, but you had been talking about the theaters, and I thought, well, gee, I've got a list of some more ones we should let the listeners know. Yes, absolutely. Everybody in America should see this documentary. Yes, and there was, of course, a huge review of it in the Washington Post today. Yes, and it's devastating. Yeah, it is. It is absolutely devastating. Can you imagine the Washington Post actually? Well, you'll have to read it yourself, folks, and maybe I'll read it to you on Monday. I don't know. I have it, by the way. Okay, let's get into Oklahoma City. All right. Where do you want to go from here? Why don't you just pick it up wherever you feel comfortable? We've got an hour and about 40 minutes to go, a little less with breaks. So you just pick it up wherever you're comfortable, and if I see a place where I need to ask a question, I'll do it for the benefit of a listening audience who can't. Okay. Well, to tell you the truth, running through a chronology of what occurred in this investigation from the beginning to the present is kind of hard for me. I've been really focused in the present moment because there's so much happening right now. Oklahoma City, for the past 48 hours, and I expect this will continue through the weekend, has just been totally inundated with anti-militia propaganda and anti-militia experts doing big, long radio appearances locally. And all of this is tying it in with the Mara bombing anniversary. And they're really getting people worked up. Well, that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to get people worked up, and if the socialists blow something else up this weekend, just as happened before, there will be this tremendous attack against the militia, even though the militia has never done anything. And the FBI and the government have been forced to admit that. We're not involved in anything unlawful or illegal whatsoever. And I'm talking about the lawful constitutional militias of the several states and of the United States. Well, what just galled me most of all was this Professor Ed Bridgman, who made a big performance on KTOK last night, talking about militias waving their pocket-sized copies of the Constitution in the air and in the same breath calling them anti-government extremists. I just couldn't quite make the connection here. Well, the connection is the propaganda effect of demonizing the militia, connecting them with the Constitution. It plants in the minds of the public that there's something evil and terrible about the supreme law of the land that protects all of us, so that when it comes time to cement their one-world totalitarian socialist utopian order, nobody's going to complain when the Constitution is flushed down the toilet and their rights disappear with it and their protection under the law. And in the process of demonizing the militia, eventually, in order to have their world government and disarm the American citizens, they're going to have to do away with the militia. And they have to cut off support between the militia and the populace to make it much easier for them to accomplish. But it's not going to be as easy as they think, I've got to tell you right now. Well, no, it's not. They are making some headway with people who are stupid to begin with. But I've been following a lot of different discussion groups of late and observing the way they think about certain issues, what they think is important in the country and so forth. And an awful lot of people that you would normally just consider sort of regular conservative Republicans who are opposed to Clinton are now not finding it such a stretch of the imagination to imagine a U.S. covert operation designed to frame Patriot Group. That's right. Well, you have to understand that sooner or later, if you lie to the American people long enough and they look around and have an opportunity over a period of time to see that it's a lie, then they will, at least a portion of them, will come around. There's a great, vast herd of sheeple out there that will never understand anything. They're lost in their Budweiser cans and their Saturday night parties and, you know, griping about their boss who pays them so that they can have their Budweiser cans and their Saturday night party and all of that kind of silly, stupid stuff. Well, the feds have screwed up so many times recently, and it's been exposed, that there's just virtually no confidence left in these organizations like the FBI, the FBI lab, the CIA, all of these different groups. The VATF. The VATF. The only people I could find who still admire them are employees of the federal government and some of the victims who have been receiving their brainwashing letters every month from Patrick Ryan. Yes. And otherwise, most people that I've talked to on the streets that I've never met and just ask them what they think about things, they think there's a lot of unanswered questions and they're not comfortable with the evidence brought out by the FBI and all this stuff. And then the lab report coming out, that was just devastating. Mm-hmm. The FBI lab report. Absolutely. It's devastating. What it says is that the FBI has been lying to judges, to juries, making, manufacturing evidence against people that didn't exist and that there's probably thousands of people in prison who are innocent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And with specific regard to the Oklahoma City case, I was studying that section of the report this afternoon, and it's just every single point on which the prosecution was facing the guilt of McVeigh and Nichols. They're not going to convict these guys, are they? I don't know, Bill. I don't know. I don't see how they can. Their whole case is falling apart. Most of their evidence has tainted. Their witnesses have been found to be criminals and liars. And it's just dissolving around them. Well, it's very... It's like the Wicked Witch of the West. When you pour water over her, she turns into a pool of green slime. Well, that's certainly what's happened to the prosecution case. But at the same time, some of the things that Stephen Jones is going to put forth are equally lacking in credibility. And he may succeed in putting forth enough... Well, you have to understand, Michelle, that he doesn't have to be credible at all. All he has to do is instill the slightest doubt into the minds of the jury, and they can't convict. Right. I think he will succeed in instilling in their minds a reasonable doubt. The question that remains in my mind is, will these jurors think that he's so far out and so nutty that this reasonable doubt is discountable? Well, I don't know. We'll just have to wait and see. And by the way, folks, neither Michelle nor I are trying to say that these guys are innocent or that they should get off. We don't know. We're Americans. We believe that everybody is innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a jury of their peers in a court of law. We're just merely commenting on the facts of the matter that we see unfolding before us. Well, look, the point is, it's okay with me if Nichols and McFay are guilty and found guilty, but if they're going to be found guilty, they need to be found guilty on legitimate evidence. Yes, absolutely. Everything the prostitution had has dissolved. Well, in the minds of most America, they're already guilty, and they're just waiting to hang them, which is un-American in my book. Well, you know, the evidence that Dave Williams put out about the explosive, first he offered an opinion of specific velocity of detonation, not based on anything except just kind of his opinion and looking around. And so the report concluded says here, I'm going to give you a quote. This is great. He acknowledged that he reached this conclusion in part because Terry Nichols, one of the defendants in the case, purchased ammonium nitrate and diesel oil prior to the bombing. Without the evidence of these purchases, Williams admitted he would have been unable to conclude that ANFO was used. Indeed, Williams stated that based on the post-blast scene alone, it could have been dynamite. We are suggesting that it could have been other things. We conclude that it was inappropriate for Williams to render a categorical opinion in his report that the main charge was ANFO. Such an identification is not based on scientific or technical grounds and appears to tailor the opinion to evidence associated with their defendants. And that little lab sentence you find throughout this report constantly. It's like the lab guys said, what is it that you need us to find, and we'll find it for you. Yeah. Yeah. Also, let's make the point here, too, that it's not a fact that Terry Nichols purchased ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel. It is alleged by the FBI that he did. It hasn't been proven. And didn't Terry Nichols live on a farm? Now, Terry Nichols lived in Harrington, Kansas, in a residential area, but he put ammonium nitrate on his lawn. James Nichols... A lot of people put ammonium nitrate on their lawn. That's right. It's his brother James that lives on the farm. Right. Right. You know, and they never mentioned to the press, we never heard before, that a dynamite wrapper was found at the scene. No, they've never stated that publicly. No. And that wasn't mentioned. And William's opinion about the ammonium nitrate was faced primarily because he had been told that Nichols had purchased 4,000 pounds and that they had receipts showing that. But I don't know that he ever saw them. Yeah. It's also possible that these guys are being framed, isn't it? Oh, yeah, absolutely. There are many things that I have discovered in this Oklahoma City section of the FBI report that are blatantly inaccurate. For example, there's a section where they talk about the possibility of higher velocity explosives, such as micromethane, being considered. Well, micromethane is not an explosive. It's a fuel. Mixed with ammonium nitrate is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, mixed with ammonium nitrate, it would have been a higher velocity fuel, yes. Right. Well, Whitehurst stated that it should have been mentioned that that particular chemical had a lot of other associated uses. Yes. Such as in model airplanes, radio-controlled model airplanes flying. And drag racing. Right. And the report here from the FBI on the lab says, well, there wasn't any indication that a model airplane was on the scene. That's absolutely not true. That is not true because we know that there was one there. Right. That little pint or half-pint bottle of micromethane that was found in the cabinet under the sink at James Nichols Farm. Was in fact model airplane fuel. Right. And the model airplane was upstairs in one of the bedrooms. Yes. And the FBI saw it and they handled it and they brought it downstairs. But I guess because they didn't take it away with them that it wasn't listed on an evidence recovery list. So they don't think there is one. I mean, it's just nutty. Well, in my experience with these people over the years, I'm a little bit more skeptical. I believe that the omission is intentional. And model airplane fuel could in no way have been in any quantity used to mix with ammonium nitrate in order to make an explosive that could have even blown a tree stump out of the ground. Much less done the damage to the Alpha P. Muir Federal building that was done. Right. What really gets me is their paragraph about secondary blast possibilities. Uh-huh. It says here, I'm going to quote again. Whitehurst questions Williams' conclusion that none of the structural damage evident within the Muir Building was caused by secondary explosive devices or explosions. Whitehurst asserts that Williams cannot test his hypothesis unless he rebuilds the Muir Building and explodes it again with secondary charges to see whether the damage is different. We reject Whitehurst's assertion that the Muir Building must be rebuilt and destroyed again in order to render a valid opinion about secondary explosive devices. We find reasonable support for Williams' opinion. This included the failure to find damage consistent with another seed of an explosion and the opinions of seismologists who concluded that there was a single blast with ancillary or auxiliary blast effects traveling surface and subsurface. And we know that that's all a blatant lie. That's all complete and total belonging. Yes. And we also know that the FBI and Beth Wilbertson and Danny Deesbaugh and Eitan Goldman all went to visit General Parton at his home in Virginia, trying to get him to change his testimony and trying to discredit his research. Yes. Every legitimate explosives expert has stated on the record that the damage to that building could not have been done without secondary high explosives attached to the reinforced concrete steel pillars, which were the main structural supports of the building. And the only support for the one bomb and whole thing comes from people who are really not explosives experts at all. Well, yeah, and they have failed to even take into consideration the Brockett, Davis, and Drake Incorporated Consulting Engineers report. Uh-huh. The report was designed to determine the soundness of the building and whether it should be brought down or rebuilt. But in the context of that report, it specifically names a utility closet, like on the third floor interior of the building, as being the seat of one of the explosions. Yes. Yes, that's true. And so, you know, it's like the FBI either doesn't have all the evidence or they're pretending like they don't have it. I think they're lying. This FBI lab report. What do you mean you think? It's pretty much been proven that they're lying not only about this, but a lot of things that have happened in the last few years. Well, see, this FBI lab report, in my mind, is almost kind of a... It's an apology. I'm not sure what the word would be. It's where they give you something that they think you want to hear. Yeah, it's an apology. It's throw the poor dog a bone. We got caught with our pants down. Now, let's pretend we did an investigation, and the results are going to be devastating, but not what they should be. It's like when Congress does an investigation, like when they did the investigation into the Waco massacre. They touched upon a few things. They proved that government officials, BATF and others, had blatantly lied. The truth came out there, and then they covered it all up and said they'd conducted the investigation, recommended a couple of reprimands for a couple of people, and then buried the report. Well, yeah, and in this, they talk about stuff like they can't even prove that it was white barrels with blue lids or whatever, and they can't even prove it was a writer's trust. The paint, the microscopy done on the paint, all they can say about it is, well, it could have originated from a box portion of a writer's trust. How many other things could the yellow paint have come from? I mean, how many cars were just totally destroyed out there? Well over 600 just, you know, right within the very close vicinity, and thousands within a quarter-mile range. Well, not all destroyed, but certainly damaged. Everything that they've done here sounds real good and works real good, except that it never addresses secondary explosions, charges on the columns, the fact that the second seismic signal was larger than the first and the third. Yeah, but you know something? We've got to do something. You're going to have to take about 15 minutes, and you're going to have to do a recap from the beginning, because we have a lot of listeners out there who haven't the slightest idea of what we're talking about, and that's the reason I originally wanted you to at least give a 10- or 15-minute recap from the beginning. You don't have to go into real detail on a lot of things, but at least start from the beginning and come up to where we're at, and then you can just go crazy if you want to. But for the benefit of the new listeners out there who may be lost and never heard any of this before, we've got to cover some basic ground. With what, regard to the seismic stuff? Just from the beginning and what shows that this needs really to be looked at by the American people and not really be buying what they're being told. Well, there's a lot of approaches. Do you want to deal with the seismic stuff? I mean, will this help? Well, you don't have to go into real deep detail, Michelle. Just cover some of the basic stuff that brings you up to what you're talking about now, because you're referencing these things. They don't know what you're talking about. Okay. All right. The blast damage to the building is asymmetrical, and according to explosive experts, the big cutout chunk portion at the east end of the building could not have been caused by a threat bomb of any conceivable size located 15 to 18 feet away from the building in the street. With that type of explosive in the amount that they state. Right. Right. Well, they're very specific now about it, because the truck size they picked won't hold anymore. Yes. They can't make it any bigger than it. Yeah. Ryder didn't make any bigger trucks. They didn't have any bigger trucks, so they had to stop there. Well, and not only that, we're not sure which truck they're talking about. The video tape that people are hearing talked about on television, the surveillance video tape that allegedly the FBI has that shows the Ryder truck across from the little food mart by the Regency Towers apartment, which is northeast of the Murrah building. Yeah. That is a newer model Ryder truck, approximately 20 feet in length. It has no cab over, no overhang over the cab, the driver's section of the truck. That's what they're claiming. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Don't move. Hold on. That's what they are claiming the Ryder truck was. But at the same time, their eyewitnesses in Oklahoma City, none of whom they're going to call, by the way, saw a different truck entirely, a shorter, older model, about 16 feet in length, with a cab over. Mm-hmm. And part of the reason I think that they're not calling any witnesses who can actually place McVeigh in Oklahoma City on the day of the blast is because the McVeighs they saw were in different trucks in different times, all at the same time, and with different accompanying passengers. Yes, and this is another peculiarity of this is that there are more than one McVeigh. In fact, there's more than two McVeighs. Just like the Kennedy assassination, there turned out to be two or three Lee Harvey Oswells all in different places at the same time, one in Mexico City, one in New Orleans, and one in Dallas, Texas. And this has caused, played havoc with investigators. Right. Well, with regard to the asymmetry we were discussing a minute ago, the explosive experts who understand how these things come about cannot account for the asymmetry of the building with the explanation offered by the Fed. Mm-hmm. And based on their expert analysis, they determined that the only way the building could have come down the way that it came down was by internally placed charges on the columns, in the parking garage, under the building, and so forth, with the trough bomb serving as like a cover-up bomb. Now, this is confirmed in a way by the seismogram taken at the Omniflex Museum. Mm-hmm. We have two seismograms we're dealing with, one done 16 and a quarter miles away near Norman, and one about four and a half miles away at the Omniflex. The Norman seismogram is the one that the government wants to use to say that there was but one blast. And looking at the Norman seismogram, their arguments in that regard are plausible. But they're not addressing the Omniflex seismogram because it shows three separate signals, the second one being larger than the first or the third. And the expert opinion on that closer-in seismogram is that the only way the middle signal could have been larger than the first and third is if it was artificially accelerated by some form of accelerant, meaning an internally placed charge. Mm-hmm. Am I making any sense? Yeah, you are making sense. I've studied all this information. I know what you're talking about. The listening audience does it. But basically what it proves is if you have an explosion, whatever the echo effects are, ground waves are, the effects of an air effect from the blast can never be greater in intensity than the blast itself. So the fact that the second indication on that seismograph is greater than the first definitely proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were more than one explosion and the second one was greater than the first. Right, right. Now this brings up the question of did the truck bomb go off first and the inside the building bomb go off second or what? You know, originally we thought that because we had so many survivors from the building who felt the shaking first climbed under their desks and that saved their lives, that they were feeling the internal charges going off before the street bomb went off. And then what they heard was the street bomb. Well, it's certainly more plausible because any explosion that would have done the damage that was done would not have been felt in time for people to recognize that they were in danger and get under a desk. Explosions are like instantaneous. I mean, the amount of time that you detect that a blast is occurring and the blast hits you is so short, even if you're a ways from the blast, that you're unable to take any action whatsoever. Explosive is instantaneous, about as instantaneous as you can get, even if it's a low-level explosive such as an end quote. Yeah, there's a lot of different explanations for what happens. But no matter what explanation they come up with, they cannot get away from the seismogram made at the Omniplex, which is the closest one. No. And eventually that's going to have to be addressed. Now, the seismologist who's been supporting the prosecution's one bomb theory is, I think his name is Patrick Holger. And he will only look at the Norman seismograph. And that's not... Well, as long as he only looks at... See, what he's doing is protecting his agenda. As long as he only looks at the Norman seismograph, he doesn't have to ever say anything that contradicts what his agenda is. Yeah, they're trying real hard. If he was a legitimate investigator, he would want to look at the Omniplex seismograph and anything else that he could find. The thing that is most disturbing to me with regard to the testimony of seismologists about this incident is that the seismologists who are very coherent and speak on this subject well in a way that the layman can understand are not the ones being interviewed by the media. The best interview we ever got on this subject was with Dr. Mankin, who's the head of that operation out there at OU Geological Survey. Yes, which we have on tape. Right. And the entire transcript of it is in the book. Mm-hmm. And he has always been the one who could explain things and make them understood and talk to the layman. But the man who's always being interviewed in the press is Dr. Ray Brown. Now, the problem we have with Ray Brown is he's not much of a public speaker. He gets very nervous when he's speaking. He's from Massachusetts Institute of Technology, so he lives in a completely different scientific world. He's not used to doing talk radio. And the last thing he said when he did his last public interview, which, oh gosh, was it before Christmas? I don't recall. He told one of my sources that he was going to have to stop doing public appearances because he had been told that if he continued doing this, the militia were going to take retribution on him. This is a blatant lie. No, it's total and complete BS. But any time these feds want to intimidate somebody, in regard to the Oklahoma City bombing, they're not coming out and saying, if you don't tow the party line, we're going to kill you. Well, they can't. They'd end up in serious trouble if they did that. Right. So instead, they say, well, we really need to present the material this way because there's been so many threats from militia. We're concerned for your life. We just want to protect you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's total BS. The militia had absolutely nothing to do with the Oklahoma City bombing or the Waco massacre or the event up in Idaho with Randy Weaver or anything else that's happened in this country. See, so not only are we dealing with just plain old anti-militia propaganda all over town, but witnesses who are being threatened and intimidated are being threatened and intimidated by the feds with militia retribution. This is insanity. Yeah. And it's making it, I've got to get out of this town, Bill. I've got to move out of this town. You're always welcome here. Yes. Don't have enough green trees out there for me. Are you kidding? We've got more green trees than you ever saw in your life. Just about a 10-minute drive from where I'm standing. Well, that's where I'd have to go. Not even that far, as a matter of fact. Well, it's getting very, very tense here. They had a complete and total lockdown at Tinker this afternoon and 100% ID check at the gates this morning. And at all of the federal office buildings downtown today, they told them to lower their Venetian blinds to protect workers from flying glass in case there was a bomb. I'm telling you, it's insane. Let me tell you why that's happening. I don't want the listening audience to know. It's happening because the militias of the several states and of the United States of America have detected and identified several people who are trying to recruit people, offering them large amounts of money to blow up a federal building on April the 19th. The militia reported it to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who notified all of the government installations and military bases in this country. And that's why they're taking these extraordinary precautions. And it was the militia that detected this plot. It was the militia who named and located and identified the culprits. It is the militia that is surveilling these people on a 24-hour basis. It was the militia that reported it to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And it is the militia who will be responsible if these people are apprehended and nothing is blown up tomorrow. Right. But we won't hear any of that in the press. No, of course not. However, I have a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation which acknowledges that they were notified by the militia that this was going to take place. So, let them try and deny this. Yeah, that's real good. That's real good. Well, you know, the business of threatening people with militia retribution, I've been observing this going on in this town, gosh, for about eight months now. And it may have been going on prior to that. But, you know, I guess it was last November when I was on your program and we talked about this tape in which it was alleged that John Doe II was being protected by the militias of the Hero and blah, blah, blah, and all that kind of stuff. That's also a blatant lie. We know who John Doe II is and he's in federal custody. He's being protected by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Well, the person who was in this conversation was basically told that if she went forward with her questions and her little investigation, that the militia would kill the government insider who was surveilling on their behalf and that his life would be on her hands. And this is just reaching its absurd proportion, but it's happening too much, too often, all the time. Well, they have to further their socialist agenda. They have to demonize and destroy the militia in the eyes of the American public so that the militia will not be able to defend freedom when they reach the point where they have to publicly destroy the Constitution and thus this nation and institute their world socialist order. And that's the agenda that's being served. These people are in charge. They're in charge of the press. They're in charge of the government. They're in charge of the federal agencies. Over the years, they have risen up into powerful positions. And when they reach a powerful position, they promote their fellow travelers in the positions below them. Joseph McCarthy was absolutely 100% correct. And when the KGB files were opened in Moscow, it verified that not only did he know the identity and the locations of the communists and socialists infiltrators in our government, but he had the exact same number that the KGB had in their files. Yeah, he wasn't lying. No, he wasn't. That's why they attacked him so viciously and destroyed him and made anybody who tried to identify and root out the communists and socialists infiltrators in our government, made to look just absolutely terrible. And after a while, nobody even tried. And so it gave them an open gate. And they have been flooding in through that open gate ever since. And it's destroying this country. They're bringing it down. They're going to have their socialist new world order. But it's, you know, if they succeed in destroying the militias and disarming the American people, but that's not going to happen. There's going to be one hell of a war. Yes. Yes. You know, when we were talking earlier about the prosecution case deteriorating, I'm wondering, they talk in the press about prosecution possibly calling 327 witnesses. And yet they dropped the lab guys who really did the lab work. They're not calling any witnesses. It's in place, say, in Oklahoma City. They've dropped all indications that the bomb was built at Gary Lake. They're not calling any of those people. And I'm thinking in my mind of the list of people that I know in this town who gave FBI statements and were interviewed on multiple occasions by the FBI who have been threatened and intimidated and aren't being called anyway. And one of the critical witnesses, in my opinion, is a man named Danny Wilkerson, who worked in that little food stop store by the Regency Towers where they have the alleged surveillance photo. Yeah. Of the truck. Uh-huh. And he described a different truck than the one they see in the video. And he also said that the McVeigh that came in to his store bought cigarettes. The McVeigh doesn't smoke. But the devastating thing about his story is that the FBI interviewed him on multiple occasions. Now, as you can see, this man is very sick. He's dying of, like, emphysema or lung cancer. And he's not very strong. When they found out that the truck that he saw didn't match the truck they wanted it to be, they brought in catalog pictures from writers and said, Now, wasn't it this truck? Can't you make it this truck? Let it be this truck? And he never would change his story. And they met with him on several occasions with those pictures to try to make him change the truck that he saw. Yeah, this is Russian justice. To match the surveillance photo that the FBI has given to the prosecution and they're going to say this was the truck. And it's that same surveillance photo that Williams based the business of the fire fuse on the bomb with. You know, two minutes and 37 seconds long, whatever. Now, the lab report totally discredited that and throws it out and says, Well, you can't say just because there was X number of minutes on the videotape that the fuse was X inches long. No, nor could he determine with any legitimacy when the fuse was activated if there was even a fuse. Right, right. And so this kind of strong-arm tactic against people who are ill and sick and undergoing all kinds of intrusive medical procedures that just waste their lives and all the strength that they have, it's cruel and unusual punishment. It's Gestapo tactics. It's the same thing that Hitler's Gestapo did in Germany. It's exactly the same thing that... People will contact me and say, Oh, aren't you excited about what's happening in Denver? Are they finally going to get the truth out? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just... I'm so tired of this. I just go, No, I don't think anything of any significance is going to come out in the trial. No, they may be acquitted or they may be found guilty, but the truth is definitely not going to be in Denver, Colorado. Right. Well, both sides, prosecution and defense, have agreed that the government will not be on trial after this trial. And so all of the evidence that we have of government simplicity, and there's certainly no shortage of it, is never going to see the light of day. No. And once they establish a public court record, why, that will be the official version. Okay, let me ask you a question. I know the answer to this, but some of the listening audience don't. Is it true that there were no BATF agents in that building at the time of the explosion? Field agents? Yes. There were no field agents in the building. There were four... Administrative personnel. Right. Right. Like a secretary and a clerk and a couple of staff guys, but no field agents. All the field agents were out. All of them. Where were they? Well, that depends on who you ask. Well, we've asked an awful lot of people. There's an awful lot of people that said that they were in their ninja turtle jackbooted thug suits from 6 o'clock in the morning all around that building waiting for the explosion to take place. You mean before the bombing? Yeah. No, they were out there in front of the building before the bombing. I was just thinking that at 10 o'clock, BATF itself admitted that all the field agents were in a debriefing at 10 a.m. Yeah. Now, prior to the bombing, which means, of course, that none of them were hurt or injured if they were all in a debriefing. That's correct. Now, they have lied to the American public and said that they did have field agents in the building, and we have determined from the story of these people that that's false. What is that story? I'm sorry. I can't hear you very well. You're breaking up over the speakerphone. Okay. Luke Franey said that he was in the building. Oh, Luke Franey. Okay. That's why I didn't hear. He's a BATF. Yeah. Luke Franey said that he was trapped inside the building under debris and unconscious for an hour. Now, he is an ATF field agent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was almost in charge of that office. I think he was second in command in that office. He lied and said he was in the building and that he chopped his way out using his martial arts skills. Right. He said he was unconscious for over an hour, came to consciousness, struggled his way out of the debris, and then, using his martial arts skills, broke through three interior walls to get out. That was his story. Talk about a sick puppy. Right. Right. But, here we've got this video tape made by the Sheriff's Department where he's pristine and clean and sweet and all nicely dressed, standing outside the building during the time when he should have been unconscious. And we placed the time based on when the large heavy equipment cranes were brought inside the perimeter. Yeah. Because they were locked in at 10.03. And they're not even in sight down any street at that time. No, they weren't in place at that time. The only thing on the scene were the fire department's ladder trucks. Yeah. Not only were they not in place, they weren't even within sight. Right. Right. And the video from the Sheriff's Department does do a 360-degree pan. Yes. In the intersection. Yeah. So, you can tell where you are and what's going on and what time it is. Mm-hmm. And the guy's not even dusty. He's just clean and neat. And he's not hurt or injured. He's standing there shaking hands and talking and laughing and joking with what appears to be two or three other government agents. Right. He was holding a jug of water in one hand and shaking hands with somebody else in front of the water resources board building. But sure as shooting, next morning he comes on the scene and he's looking all bedraggled and tired and worn out and he's got his hand in a cast. So, sometime between, you know, the hand shaking out front when he's in perfect condition to the next day he decided he'd better have a broken hand. Yeah. So, sometime between that period he blew himself up and chopped himself through three walls using his martial arts skills. Well, yeah. But the thing that's more devastating about the Franny evidence that we know is that in that controversial January 17th broadcast of 2020 by ABC, they showed that section of the Sheriff's video. They showed Luke Franny's biggest life right on TV. But the announcer never told the public what they were seeing or the significance of it. They showed it. And that was supposed to make everybody here happy. Yeah. Now, didn't he also claim that he was trapped in an elevator that fell several floors? No, no, no. That was Alex McCauley with the DEA and Dave Shickendance. Okay. So, let's hear that story. Well, these guys, let me make sure I'm getting my people right here. It is Dave Shickendance, and he was a security officer with the DEA. And Alex McCauley, I think he was DEA too. But don't hold me to that. Well, I don't have any notes in front of me. I purposely did not make any... I don't remember if he was DEA or... I think he was DEA. Anyway, they claimed that they got into an elevator. The bomb went off. It fell. Six stories. They forced the door open, forced their way out, struggled out, escaped from the building, and then went back in to help with search and rescue. And that was a lie. That was a lie. How do we know it was a lie? Because April the 19th of 95 was the day that the General Services Administration had booked the Midwest Elevator Company to come in and do their annual inspection of the elevators. And the elevator inspection crews were across the plaza in the Federal Courthouse at the time the bomb went off. And they were unhurt. And within, you know, a minute of everything collapsing, they were in that building checking every single elevator. There weren't any cables cut. None of them fell. None of them had any rapid acceleration. And none of the doors had been forced open. None of the doors were jammed shut. And there was nobody in any of the elevators. In fact, all of the safety features of the elevators worked perfectly. Yes, they did. And as they were doing this inspection after the bombing, they took photographs of all of the different elevator components and elements. So there's absolutely no way that they're going to, you know, Chicken Vance and McCauley are going to get away with saying that an elevator fell. Now, Lester Marks of the Dallas office of the BATF has suggested that, well, they thought they fell. They thought they fell six floors and they thought they pried open the door and they thought they were in the elevator. The truth was they weren't even in the building. Well, I don't know that they weren't in the building. Well, let me think about that. Well, if their story is a lie, they couldn't have been in the building. They said they were in the elevator and fell six floors. I think we do have Chicken Vance on videotape in front of the building when he was supposed to be in as well. I'd have to double-check on that, but that does ring a bell with me. Yeah. We've covered so many details over the two-year period. You just have to forgive me if I don't have everything just right at the front of my brain. Well, that's okay. I intentionally did not make notes for this broadcast because I wanted it to be your show and not take over with reading from my notes. So I purposely did not prepare any of what I'm doing. We're in trouble because I don't have any notes either. Well, between the two of us, I think over the last few years, we know what we're talking about pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. And if we make a mistake... That was another great big lie. Yeah. Okay. So you want to take a little breather and get a drink of water while I play some music and then we'll come back? Indeed. That would be great. Okay. Why don't you do that? And we'll be right back, folks, after this short pause. We'll be right back. Be right back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Anti-gun law. I cannot remember everything that we've now been equated with. But it wasn't good enough to just have all militia people be white supremacists. They really had to expand their definition because there's too many people out there who love America who even if they weren't militia members would stand up against this. Yes. They had to increase the number of enemies. So I don't know. I'm thinking now about the John Cash attempt to tie in the Aryan Republican Army with Elohim City, with Andreas Strachmeier, with Carol Howe, with the neo-Nazis, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And with ultimately the militia. Well, yeah, of course. Elohim City has never been a militia organization. No. It's a white separatist community, and they just happen to be very well armed. Right. And they hold some radical political views, but they're just not a militia group. No. However, if we are to believe the reports that have come out, and I'm not sure that I do believe them, but it has been alleged that Pastor Millar allowed that thousand-acre tract of land to be used as a domestic terrorist training facility. But because this information originated with John Cash, it's impossible to confirm or deny. Something came out that Cash wrote today that I was happy to see, although I'm sure that John Cash was not happy to write it. He's reached the point where to maintain his credibility, he had to make some connection with some of these people to the intelligence community, through the intelligence community in Germany. And he made that connection, and that's exactly where we were on day one. Oh, was that because of that cable? Yes. I don't have the material in front of me, but I know what you're talking about. This has been the way John Cash has played the game from the very beginning. Yeah. He's always had access to internal FBI reports, internal FBI investigations, FBI 302 statements, secret State Department documents and reports on terrorism, and now these cables from State Department offices in Bonn, Germany being sent to the United States. And so you've just got to ask, okay, so he's got all this insider information. This makes him just the Supreme Court expert. How did he get these documents? Well, the truth is, and being an ex-member of the Office of Naval Intelligence, I can tell you this with no reservations whatsoever, there are no such thing as leaks. There are information planted for reasons designed to affect the target of that information, whether it be an individual, a company, an ethnic group, a nation, a region of the world, whatever. The fact that he has access to so much secret and top-secret information that no one else can even get close to, even those of us who are solidly connected with the intelligence community, means that John D. Cash is an agent of some intelligence organization. Whichever one it turns out to be, I don't know, but it absolutely, without any doubt, means that he is an agent of one of the intelligence organizations of this country. Yes, and my tendency is to suspect central intelligence agencies for a lot of different reasons. But, of course, we'll never be able to prove this. This is just my personal speculation and opinion. Now, we know, and we knew on, well, we knew publicly on Friday, April the 21st, 1995, that there had been bad blood between the FBI and the CIA over this bombing because one organization knew about it in advance and didn't tell the other one, and there was name-calling and finger-pointing and all kinds of contention and strife between them because of this incident. Yeah, we know which one of them knew about it in advance because they had people, or at least which one is claimed to have known about it in advance because we know who had people on the scene. Right, well, that was the FBI. Yeah, but the truth is we also know that both of them knew about it in advance, and one of them is complicit in its happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what bothers me about Cash and his FBI connections is in his last interview with Mike McCarvel, he came right out and spoke of his close and abiding affection and association with Thomas Kukor, who replaced Bob Ricks as a special agent in charge of the Oklahoma City Division or branch, and apparently since Ricks became head of the Department of Public Safety and Kukor has been in his shoes, Cash and Kukor struck up this really close, deep and abiding friendship. So I wonder if Cash is Central Intelligence Agency, maybe he's keeping tabs on the Fed for them. I don't know, I'm guessing, but the guy cannot, simply cannot have the sort of access that he has. And he quotes these documents at length. No one can. Right. And if they did and they were not a part of the apparatus that was supposed to have possession of this information, they would have been arrested and charged with espionage. Right, right. And the John Cash story gets even creepier when you think about during that first year when he was associated with the defense team, when they were paying him to make little trips over to Elohim City and out to Utah to see that, what is that group, Sons of the Army of Israel or something like that. Yeah. All of that was that defense department, I'm sorry, defense, but say defense team expense. And so their whole thrust of foreign terrorist involvement has been by way of John Cash. Yes. And they've paid him to do these things, and yet nothing that he has ever uncovered of the many things that he has uncovered, and some of them have been significant, nothing has ever pointed to anything other than your single bomber, you know, your lone truck bomber theory. Yes. And for a while there, early on, he was really pushing hard the idea of the illegally stored explosives in the BATF arsenal rooms on the ninth floor being the cause of the internal explosion that made the asymmetrical damage. He's now completely backed off of that. Well, he had to. I mean, he would have been destroyed if he had stuck with that because we already destroyed that premise completely. It's absolutely beyond the realm of possibility. There was no explosion occurred at that part of the building, and all of that material was recovered, and we have videotape that shows it being recovered, and none of it has any blast damage from anything other than a blast that occurred quite a ways away from it. Well, right. You know, from your truck bomb up to the ninth floor, you don't have enough force of blast left to detonate anything. No. And his whole theory was that the fascia of the building would fall down after the contents of the ruptured arsenal room had fallen down, and that would provide 3,500 pounds per square inch of pressure, and boom, it would go off. Total baloney. Yeah, because he couldn't get past the fact that the fascia of the building was blown outwardly across the street, and none of the fascia of the building fell down. It all fell out. Yeah. Actually, I was out of character there. It's total bullshit. I've got to stay in character. No, I did so. Cannot disappoint my listening audience. Well, there are an awful lot of questions about who John Cash is and just what his background is. Very, very many unanswered questions. I had to... He was a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and may still be. They don't always publish the full list of members. He was sponsored into the Council of Foreign Relations as a member at large by Larry Oliver, who is the Tulsa attorney who is handling Glenn Wilburn's case against McVeigh for wrongful death. Oh, I love you. You just picked up that ball and ran with it. Thank you, Bill. I'm well trained. But, yeah, he's CFR, whether he's paying dues or not. Yes. And he was sponsored in by Glenn Wilburn's lawyer years ago. Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's that. But what's even more interesting lately is I have a friend in the alternative press, so to speak, who's got some connections and doing some John Cash work for me. And in just looking up his traffic records, his motor vehicle records, the guy's history only goes back three years. There's no driver's license, traffic tickets, or anything like that over the past three years on John Cash. We've already determined that on this end. Yeah. And, you know, we know what that means. Well, yeah. I don't know what I can say about it with any degree of certainty. Well, I can tell you with no uncertainty whatsoever. I can tell you absolutely as a fact that the only time you will ever find people who appear and disappear under certain names and Social Security numbers and driver's license without any history before or after that particular appearance or that particular job are operatives of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Office of Naval Intelligence, Army G-2. I could go on and on and on, but I think that's enough. That'll do. That fits the pill. So, you know, we have a lot of John Cash-isms floating around every day. A day does not go by that I don't get some kind of information about what John Cash is doing. And yet the agenda is so clear cut, it's just so obvious to look at what he's doing. I'm not going to go and discount some of the evidence that he's found because some of the evidence he's found we've documented to be true. It has to be. You can't catch flies with salt. I mean, you've got to have some honey in there somewhere. Well, that was going to be my point is that a good disinformation agent, if he lies all the time, nobody will ever believe him. But you have to put out certain statements of provable, documentable facts. To catch the fools. To catch the fools. And then you can reel them in on a line of false conclusion. And he is a master at this. Oh, yes, he is. He is quite a master at this. And there have been critical moments in this investigation where we came to a point and beyond that point, nothing was ever the same again. There have been several of them. And in every instance, John Cash was the major player in all of them. The first one happened with the, let's see, was that before? Yeah. The first one that happened was the positive idea of Gary Hunt. And the minute that that was going to be made public, he immediately came up. He erupted like a volcano. Oh, he had a fit and threatened the operative who had done the legwork on this. Threatened his life, as a matter of fact. Yes, threatened to kill him. And we still had the positive idea of Gary Hunt. And as far as this look-alike, this general record-building maintenance man look-alike and friend. No such. Happened to look like Hunt's accomplice. They have never, ever since that time been identified, been photographed, been shown in videotape or anything. That's because there are no such people. I know. I know. Yeah. Not just flatline. He jumped right in there just instantly. The minute that was going to, he knew that that was going to be made public, that positive ID. He jumped right in there and threw a big wrench in the works and screwed a lot of people around. That's what he did. Well, he thought we were about to reveal the identity of an operative. And the truth is that Gary Hunt had been identified and outed long ago. Apparently Cash didn't know about that or he wouldn't have been so concerned about it. Oh, I know. I mean, Gary Hunt's old news. Yes. Gary Hunt had been old news by the time Waco happened. Yes. You know, so there was that. And then when Parton's report was finally getting national news coverage, sort of, I guess I should say national news coverage in terms of Patriot Radio, really. Yes. Because the mainstream media has ignored it for the most part. That's when he suddenly came out with his BATF illegally stored explosives hypothesis. And that stood for about, oh, five months, six months, something like that. But then when Ray Brown came forward with the information about the three signals on the omniplex seismogram and the middle one being the largest one, that blew the BATF thing out of the water. And Cash was using the BATF arsenal room hypothesis to cover the tails of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Because of all things on earth, he did not want any FBI complicity in this. And he came forward on several different nationally syndicated conservative Patriot-type talk radio programs saying the FBI had nothing to do with this. They just came in to cover the ineptitude of the BATF, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we have all of these local law enforcement agents who saw them out there in front of the building. We have law enforcement agents who were killed because of information he had about FBI agents in front of the building. Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute. I don't think a lot of Americans know that that happened or exactly what happened. Let's, why don't you talk about that for a couple of minutes. About Terrence Yakey? Yes. Terrence Yakey was a rabid sergeant in the Oklahoma City Police Department. And after the explosion occurred, because he was at the downtown office, he went running to the scene. Everybody was running toward the scene. And it disturbed him greatly that as he was running to the scene, he saw FBI agents with their, you know, their body armor on and their rifles at the ready. Their Ninja Turtle jackbooted thug suits. Right, that's what they were. Sure, with FBI and big letters on the back, you can always identify them by their jacket. Mm-hmm. Running away from the scene, running back behind the YMCA building. And it also bothered him that there were so many VATF agents on the scene. And he mentioned these misgivings that he had in the report that he filed at the end of the day. You know, they file a police report every day for action that they do on the field. Sure. Sure. And that was the beginning of the end for Terrence Yakey. He asked too many questions. And he was very, very disturbed by things that he saw, things that he heard, and things that he was told he didn't see and he didn't hear. You know, all day long. The more police officers I talked to, the more I hear the same story that, well, we were told that we didn't really see this. We were told that we didn't really hear this. We were told we needed to forget this. And that's a running theme for the people who were on the scene. And Terrence Yakey was one of those who was disturbed by this. And it bothered him so much that he went to see the police chaplain, Jack Poe, to, you know, bear his soul and find counsel and solace and get his life together. That was a big mistake, wasn't it? Well, yeah, so Chaplain Poe wrote him up and distributed reports about Terrence Yakey throughout the supervisory staff that basically said that he's unfit for duty and you need to get him off the force. Well, then Terrence Yakey's police reports began disappearing from the computer. Or at least he couldn't ever get access to them. And so he had some of his fellow police officers who were, who felt the way he did, try to access his records. They couldn't access them either. And then theirs began disappearing. This would have been Gordon Martin and John Avera. John Avera was the police officer who handed little baby Bailey Allman to the firefighter in that Pulitzer Prize winning photograph that was splashed everywhere. Yeah. The day after the bombing. Primarily on the cover of Newsweek. That was John Avera. And these guys had great concerns about what they had experienced and what they'd seen and what they knew. And that they couldn't get their questions answered and they couldn't ask anybody about their questions. safely. So, with extreme paranoia and fearing for his job, Terrence Yakey began his own little investigation. Just gathering things together. Having people give him information. Collecting things from people who will always be anonymous to us. And he had a lot of this in his possession. And he was ready to make a move in May of 96. And he called someone that he trusted to take all of this information to them. Because he was certain that he was going to be fired from the police department just any minute. There was an internal affairs investigation going on about him. There were all kinds of rumors flying about him. And this was like two days before he was supposed to receive this special medal of commendation for performance of duty, you know, above and beyond the call. Mm-hmm. He went, well, he called in, let's see, he called in to my connection at about 3 in the afternoon to let them know where he was and that he was going to take these materials. And he was told to call in again as soon as he got where he was going. And he never called back. And that's the last anybody ever heard of him. That was the last time anybody spoke to him alive. He was reported missing about, oh, I don't know, 5 or 5.30 in the afternoon. And at 7.30 that night, his body was found in a field in El Reno about 200 yards from his vehicle. And he had been ritualistically murdered. Up and down his arms. See, at first we were told that his arms from wrist to elbow had been shredded. And I had always imagined, what's the correct term, lateral? Up and down from wrist. Longitudinal. Going straight from your wrist up to your elbow. That kind of shredding? Yes, longitudinal. Longitudinal. Okay, well, it was not longitudinal shredding. They were diagonal cuts, multiple diagonal cuts from wrist to elbow on both arms. If there was a slash on one side of his body, there was an identical slash on the other side of his body. The degree of thought, and I hate to say the word artistry, but that's what comes to mind. Somebody really thought this out. Mm-hmm. They killed him in such a way that he would have to send a message to somebody. And so there was never an investigation brought into this in spite of the fact that he was cut up everywhere. He was also shot in the head with a gun, and it was not his service pistol, and it was not fired from the hand that he fires with. It came from the right side of his head, and he's a left-handed person. Right. And this was ruled a suicide. Oh, yeah. Immediately ruled a suicide. In fact, the newspaper's the next day. Here is a big story saying that Terrence Yeeke had been so upset because of bad relations with his ex-wife and all these things going on and not feeling like he really deserved to be a hero and all this kind of stuff that he killed himself before he could receive this Medal of Honor. Total and complete BS. Yes. Complete BS. So there was never a thorough investigation into his murder. But it's just been within about the past six weeks that we have finally made contact with his family, his mother and sister and that group. And they have the autopsy. They have the drawing of the body that shows where all the marks are, the cuts, the lacerations, and so forth. And it's unbelievable. But the guy was, you don't kill yourself that way. No. You know, but as far as the materials that he had in his possession, they were, of course, all gone. All gone. Of course. And we'll never really know. We certainly have heard a lot of rumors about some of the things that Terrence Yeeke had collected and that clearly implicated the FBI. The stuff he had in his possession was almost all FBI implication stuff from what we've been told. But the FBI wouldn't do anything like that, wouldn't they? Are you kidding? Of course they would. The truth is it's been revealed through Senate investigations that the FBI at one time had an organization called Division 5, which was an assassination squad. And our information is that after that investigation they said that Division 5 had been disbanded. But the truth is it just became another name. Well, whatever he had is gone and he's dead. We don't know who he was going to meet with. And we don't know who it was that killed him. No. But anyone who has raised any questions about the Terrence Yeeke murder after the fact has been, especially on the police department, has been subjected to an internal affairs investigation. There's several good police officers who have taken a lot of heat. Beg your pardon. Beg your pardon. If they haven't stood up in a soapbox in front of the press of the nation and told the truth, they are not good police officers and nobody will ever convince me otherwise in a million years. Well... I don't care how intimidated they are. I don't care how scared they are. These are the men the public put their trust into to uphold and protect the law and the community and the citizens in which they live, and they are not doing it. Well, then we won't call us good police officers. They're just police officers. Good for you. I get very angry when I hear that. When I hear... When I know what's going on and they're not... They're covering it up by their silence and by their inaction and they claim that they're being intimidated and they don't want to get hurt, that is bunk. It is their job to stand in the way of danger, in harm's way, and protect the community. So, you know, there are some good police officers all across this country, but right now there are no good police officers in Oklahoma City. None. Not one. Except for Terrence Yickey. And he's dead. Well, yeah. He died because he was trying to be a good one. He died because he was a good one. Yeah. Or he wouldn't be dead. Well, he's dead. And that's just one of several unexplained deaths, but his we have the most details on and the most proof of. And so it's pretty sad. You look at the different things that have occurred to shut people up. You know, Sam Gonzalez, who's chief of police, put a complete gag order on the Oklahoma City police officers forbidding them to discuss the bombing with anybody. Media, non-media, fellow police officers, anybody. It is a subject that cannot be discussed. Well, that's an unlawful, unconstitutional order. Yeah, well, they're following him. They may be police officers, but they have the protection of the first article and amendment. They have freedom of speech like any other citizen. And that's Gestapo stuff. What is he afraid of? Getting caught? You better believe he's afraid of getting caught. Of knowing about it in advance? Yes. You know, if the fire department, and we know this is true, received a telephone call on Friday the 14th of April from the FBI warning them of this pending disaster and they knew about it, how could the police department not know about it? It's inconceivable to me that the fire department would know and the police would not. No more than the FBI and the BATF could call the hospitals in Waco, Texas and Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas, early the morning of April the 19th, 1993, and tell them to be ready to accept large numbers of burn patients and then later say that they had no knowledge that there was going to be a fire. Right, right. And then we've got the Department of Justice being fully briefed in advance on the 22nd of March, the 28th of March, and the 6th of April that this was coming down. Yes. And we're still getting information from the source about that incident and he's got the documentation to prove that he did make those warnings because he made them in writing. Uh-huh. Yeah. And, but they're denying that they received him or they're saying, well, he's a crazy guy, we're discrediting his information, it can't be taken seriously, da-da-da-da-da. But the Department of Justice had to know, Janet Reno had to know, you just can't put the entire U.S. Marshals Service on alert without the head of the Department of Justice, the Attorney General, knowing this. Yes, not on that, but we have the record of shortly before the bombing, several major government installations across the country were holding bomb drills and evacuating buildings. And this appeared in some newspapers. Yes, and there was a California, who was this? I had, well, I haven't confirmed this yet. There's a gal who's living in Michigan now. And I've been trying to make connections with her through James Nichols because she reported to him, she lived in California at the time of the blast. Uh-huh. And at 6.30 in the morning California time, she heard a radio news report saying that the federal building had already been blown up. And that's an hour before it actually happened. Well, California time, let's see, 6.30. One hour before it happened. Uh- Two hours earlier than Oklahoma. It would have been an hour, yeah, 30 minutes before it actually happened. Because 6.30 California time would have been six from here. Oh, you said, yeah, you said 6.30. I thought you said six. Yeah, that's true. Right, so about 30 minutes before it happened in California, they're announcing on the news that the building's already blown up. Yes. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a memo that went to the Inspector General's office of the FBI saying that same thing prior to the blast happening. Well, somebody also got their time screwed up, and they published in a newspaper in New Zealand that President Kennedy had been assassinated the day before it occurred. Oh, God, that's too bad. That's too much, too much. But it's a fact. I believe it. They never change. This just never changes. What is it that causes someone who knows in advance to jump the gun like that? Well, they forgot about the international dateline. They thought it was the day that he was killed, and they thought that they were releasing it after the assassination. Ah, the foibles of human friends. They get trapped in their own plans every time. Every single time. Every single time. So my whole opinion about the Denver thing is the truth will never, ever, ever come out in the Denver trial. No. And the official court record will forever after be used to discredit any good, solid research that we do, no matter how many times over we can prove it. Oh, I think it goes much deeper than that, Michelle. Well, I think layer upon layer is being heaped upon the American people to get them to be willing to give up the jury system and accept a tribunal of judges, just like they have had in communist and socialist countries around the world since socialism was invented. And that's where this is going. I believe that they're not going to be able to convince Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh, and that's going to cause the American people to scream to get rid of the jury system. They will institute a system of three judges, which will be a tribunal. They will be the accusers, the jury, the judge, and the executioner. And from then on out, you will have nothing but political trials in this country as they bring the new world order in. You watch. Now, that's my prediction. How many times have I ever been wrong? Only once. Only once. I caught most of what you said. I'm not sure what the deal is with that phone, but about every third word you broke up. I understood you to talk about the three-judge tribunal as being the future of the justice system, and all the provisions for that are already in place with the passage of the omnibus counterterrorism bill that was put on the fast track because of the Oklahoma City bombing. Yes. What's happening with the phone is I have a microphone between me and the speakerphone, and if I'm not off the side of the microphone speaking directly into the speakerphone, then sometimes it doesn't actuate the speaker, if you know what I mean. Oh, well, if I can't hear you, I'm in trouble. Okay. I will remember that. Okay. Yeah, the three-judge tribunal. I was talking to somebody last week, and it seems like they had remarked that in Colorado, there already is a three-judge tribunal system for capital cases, but I couldn't document that. Is there any place in the United States that you're aware of that's already operating the three-judge tribunal? Not that I'm aware of. However, there could be. We don't know everything that's going on everywhere, although we know more than most people will ever know in their entire life and the next one after. I can't tell you. I don't know. Well, the premise of that kind of a, quote-unquote, justice system is certainly plausible. All the groundwork's been laid for it. The laws allowing it are already in place, and that in conjunction with the secret trials and illegally obtained evidence and no appeals and all this kind of stuff, it's happening. Yes, it is. Everything that happened in Germany in the 1930s during Hitler's rise to power and afterward is happening here in this country today. And I am absolutely amazed that the American people don't have the brains to see it. I'm not talking about all of them, but there's only just a few people in this country who are awake and understand what's happening, or even give a damn, it seems to me. Do you see that where you're at? The people don't give a damn? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, they have reached the point where they think there's nothing they can do. That's what I'm seeing here. How do they think they're going to escape the consequences of all of this? They think they're just going to endure. I think they're not. That's what the Jews in Germany said. We'll just endure. This will pass. Hitler has to establish law and order and control, and nothing's going to happen to us. And forget about all those rumors you've been hearing about camps and all that kind of stuff. Seems at least the Jews in this country would wake up. Well, in the Oklahoma City area, and this I can speak about from experience because I'm here. I can't speak for the whole country. But there's basically two schools of thought. One still blindly believes that the government can do no wrong, and if they say it, it must be right, and all these people must be sadly mistaken, or it's just a terrible conspiracy to try to weaken our government, and hey, we need to support them. The other side, the ones who've been asking questions about the bombing, they have spent their strength. They're just weak and frail and without direction, without impetus. The bombing victims, families, survivor members who've been questioning and turning over their evidence and their photographs and their videotapes and their statements to all these private investigators who've come around and then left them hanging, they feel like they've done everything they can do, and they're now without hope. So you've got this one side who's going to support the government no matter what, and this other side who thinks it's hopeless. We just have to let it roll over us and happen, and the sooner life is over, the better. I can't tell you how many people that I know in that group of people who are really bordering on suicidal because of this. It is so obvious that they're doing the wrong thing. The government is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the lawful amendments there, too. It isn't Bill Clinton or the FBI or the BATF or any of those people. They are people. People make mistakes. People fall into agendas. They have philosophical viewpoints that differ from others. They have purposes and all kinds of things, and they make mistakes, and sometimes they're tempted and commit crimes on purpose. And so any faith put in anything other than the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is a mistake. But you see they don't see it that way because they're told that anyone who is a Constitutionist, who believes in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are somehow terrorists and are a threat to them. And therefore, if you were to scrap the Constitution tomorrow, most people in this country wouldn't say a word for fear of being labeled a terrorist. Well, that's exactly the way they see it. If they look to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to protect them in a pinch, but if they dare to support it, well, then all of a sudden they're backing the people they say blew up the building, and they can't justify or reconcile any of these contradictions in their mind. And that's part of what contributes to their hopelessness. Oh, that is so much insanity. The Constitution, as a matter of fact, says that anybody accused of a crime must be tried in the state where the crime occurred, and nowhere else. Where's this trial taking place? Denver. Colorado. That's unconstitutional. It is unlawful. Well, yet those of us who believe that they should adhere to the supreme law of the land are somehow labeled as wackos, nuts, constitutionists, terrorists, fundamentalists, and what else? You name it. If it's bad, we're called it. Nazis. Nazis, yeah. Until they began the jury selection process, even the families and victims and survivors were okay with the idea of moving the trial because they really did believe that a fair trial couldn't happen in Oklahoma. But their main concern was that if it ever came back, that there wasn't a fair trial available in Oklahoma, then appeals could be filed and the perps could get off. None of that matters. None of that matters. None of that matters. The law says, the supreme law of this land says, that the perpetrators or the accused must be tried in the state wherein the crime occurred. Well, what they've discovered to totally blow, I mean, that's what got them away from questioning, confronting, you know, challenging that change of venue. That's why they didn't challenge it. But now that we're into jury selection, everybody's suddenly discovering that there really isn't a place on the face of the earth that you could hold a trial that somebody didn't know about this burning. The media saturation was so intense. There was never any legitimate reason at all, ever, to correct the constitutional guidelines and move this trial out of state. The purpose of the jury was not to find people who didn't know that a crime occurred. My God, in the beginning of this country, in every little burg and town and county in this country, there was no such thing as finding anyone who didn't know the business of everybody who lived within 100 miles around them. The purpose of the jury is to bring the peers of the accused together to sit in judgment because they know the person and they know the witnesses and they know the area wherein the crime occurred. And they're the only ones who can make an honest judgment. There isn't going to be an honest judgment, of course. Of course not. That's just a foregone conclusion. It's not going to happen. So it's all real stinky. This whole thing is occurring under the color of law. And somebody, someday, in appeal perhaps, could make this thing straighten out instead, but I don't think it'll ever happen. No, the color is brown and it stinks and there's flies all over it. Well. If you don't watch out, you might step in it. There's too much at stake because of this bombing. This bombing has redefined the mentality of the American people and totally changed their psychology of living. And if the bomb trial doesn't happen the way the feds want it to happen, then they're off schedule, aren't they? Maybe they won't get everybody moving into the year 2000 together, whether we like it or not, as Clinton said, if they screw this thing up. Well, please. But because the defense is as much in the pocket of this operation as the prosecution is, no matter which way the trial goes, the whole new socialist agenda is coming. And I'm concerned now with, we focus in on the trial very, very closely, make sure you're always watching over your back at what is also going on simultaneously. I think it's a big mistake to get so caught up in trial watching that you don't pay attention to what else is happening at the same time. Oh, that's true. Let me read this to you. This is Article 3, Section 2, Paragraph 3. Quote, The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury, and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crime shall have been committed. But when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed. That's the supreme law of the land. Did the Congress direct the moving of the trial to Denver? No. No? No. I think they're trying to get around the fact that it's there by doing the telecast in Oklahoma City. Well, maybe that could be. But the fact is they are in an unconstitutional mode right now, and they are violating the law. That's the truth. Well, yeah. There's no amendment to Article 3, Section 2, Paragraph 3. If you don't believe it, get out your constitutions, folks, and check it. And while you're at it, read the rest of the Constitution, and you'll find that the Constitution was thrown in the trash ten years ago. It is not in effect now. And that should be alarming to everyone in this country, because without that document to protect us, we're in big trouble, bigger trouble than you could even imagine. And the philosophy that is taking hold of this country and the world is the philosophy that enslaves and destroys people. So what else is new? I wasn't sure if you'd stop talking or not. You were breaking up. Yeah, I've stopped. You've got to talk into this. My mouth was in front of the microphone and not the speakerphone again. Well, the estimates are right now that opening statements will begin next Thursday or Friday. So if they wrap up jury selection by Tuesday, take a day off Wednesday, then this thing will be off and running on Thursday morning and we'll find out exactly what the prosecution is doing. But they've really pared their case down to the bare bones. You know, that one FBI agent, what was his name, Gray? Yes. You know, they never had a case to begin with. No, they didn't. But they had a lot of stuff they wanted to throw out and say was a case. Yeah. I could just see a bunch of sheeple out there saying, What do you mean they didn't have a case? Those guys did it. They need to be home. They need to go to an electric chair. The truth is, folks, regardless of what you've read in the press or heard on the radio or seen on the communist television networks, the truth is the feds never had anything from the beginning that can actually convict Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh. And I'm not saying this because I'm on their side. If they're guilty, I want them to be convicted and be punished. I'm saying it because we have investigated this and we know exactly what they have. It's no secret. And you could know, too. Well, yeah, we've pretty much been above board and publicly stated almost everything we've uncovered. That's right. And documented. It's definitely out there for people who want to know. The disinformation is rampant, especially this time of the year. Imagine every major news program is going to do something to make us weep over the bombing again tonight on the evening news. Tomorrow, all day long, television coverage is going to be bombing memorial stuff. And the thing about the prosecution case, what little they have is all circumstantial. Because the FBI lab blow up, they can't use any of the people who actually did any of the testing except Burmeister. An awful lot of what Whitehurst alleged is true. They're not calling any witnesses who can put McVeigh at the scene of the crime. The man that they've got lined up to say that McVeigh was there renting the truck is in bigger trouble than he was before. He's in jail now because he threatened his landlord because his landlord was going to have him evicted for non-payment of rent. Not only threatened his landlord, trashed the building. Trashed the apartment, yeah. And so Tom Kessinger is in jail on that. And he had gone public and said, Don't worry about the rent. I'm going to be rich when this is all over. Either thinking he was going to collect the John Doe money or he's going to sell his story to some pulp fiction. Or somebody's promised to pay him off if he gives certain testimony in a certain way. Right. So his testimony is definitely suspect. The only thing they've really got at all is Fortier. And Fortier's been coerced. And his story's changed a hundred times. Yeah. You know, and if somebody's going to be complicit, then he was complicit. And also very afraid. And we have no way of knowing what Fortier might have undergone when they moved him to that medical prison facility in Fort Worth for so many months. No telling how his brain's been worked over. Really? So, and we've had an awful lot of psychologists, psychiatrists, you know, brain-fried doctors. Including the biggest mind control expert in the hands of the government, Louis Jolly West. Right. Because he's been here to Oklahoma City right after the bombing and then did a big article in the newspaper. And he's been out to El Reno. And then you move McVay to Colorado, and the first thing he asks for is the psychiatric care. Or they say he asked for. Sure. That's what they say. That's what they say. And we don't know if he did or not. And we know that we can't trust them to tell us the truth. Because we caught him in so many lies. It might be just another method of demonizing McVay in the eyes of the public that if he asks for a psychiatrist, he must be crazy. Yeah. Well, as the feds went into the scramble, you know, it's just, it was a, at first it was a gradual deterioration. They dropped the witnesses and put McVay in Oklahoma City because they can't jive their stories about the trucks or the people accompanying which McVay or when. And then they had to drop the Geary Lake thing. Then they're wondering whether or not to call Tom Kessinger. One of their prime star witnesses has got a long history of bad eyesight. You know, it's just, it's almost a comedy. But when it's all going to hell in a handbasket, bam, here come all these confessions. Right? And I'm thinking right now specifically of the Ben Fenwick confession that he sold the Playboy. Because Ben Fenwick, I know this guy. For the longest time, all he did was report little bitty blurbs of local news on the KGOU college radio in between episodes of All Things Considered National Public Radio broadcast. And that was really all he did. And then all of a sudden now he's a journalist for the Gazette and a couple of other papers in town. And then he comes up with this confession that he's convinced came from solid defense documents. Well, he's been subpoenaed now by Tygard, who wants not to question Fenwick, but he wants his paperwork. But when you went through that Playboy confession, it was so unbelievable. There were so many things that were absolutely inaccurate in it. But the thing that really struck me the most was the business of how McVeigh parked the bomb-laden truck out back in Blackwell, Oklahoma, behind this motel, on the grass, so it would drain. Because there was all this diesel fuel draining out of the truck. And I just thought, wait a minute. If it's all contained in these plastic barrels, why is the diesel fuel draining out? Because these idiots vision a stack of paper sacks full of ammonium nitrate granules to which these guys have poured diesel fuel over. That's why. Well, it was incredibly nutty. And because that caused me a lot of logical problems... Well, by the way, if that was true, there would still be soil soaked with diesel fuel at that location. It would be so easy to go there and identify it. And I don't think that there is such a thing. Because if there was, the FBI would have already been there and dug it all up. And that, we know, hasn't happened. No, it hasn't. And it would certainly be no problem to drive out to Blackwell and look around the back side of that motel. That's right. You know, but I contacted a friend of mine who has a lot of books that you probably shouldn't have these days. And we went over the... You mean in a country where there's freedom of speech and freedom of the press, there's books that we can't have? You're not supposed to... Are we burning books now? Well, yeah. I mean, the society has changed, has it not? But so, we're looking at the procedure that would be required to create this anelol. And for those guys to properly mix and dry and soak and all that stuff, 4,000 pounds of it would have taken a lot longer than the two days that are alleged that were involved. Mm-hmm. And if you have to dry it, then you're not going to have a bunch of stuff leaking out of the back of the truck. It's a Fenwick Playboy confession. It's too stupid to be believed. It's a lie. And the other confession that... It's not just stupid, Michelle. There are things all through it that can be proven to be false. And that the federal government doesn't even want to be true. Right. And the same thing with the Dallas Morning News confession. Yes. And that business of Richard Rayna and John Cash's association with him and Stephen Jones' involvement in all of that, that's just one more little strange black mark in my book that puts these guys on the wrong side of the law. Mm-hmm. You know, it's inconceivable to me that you want to go and trap a white supremacist by making this person think that they're not a suspect, and the way you do that is give them a phony confession so that they don't think they're suspected. I think that's complete and total insanity. Right. Well, there's one other thing I want to interject here. We found out that Timothy McVeigh did not flunk his attempt to get into United States Army Special Forces in any sense of the word flunk or fail. He was physically fit. He passed all the physical tests. He passed every single thing except for one. When asked if he would carry out an assassin, if that was the order that he was given, he said no. Right. Right. When asked if he would commit an assassination, if he were given the order, he said no, and that is what disqualified him for United States Army Special Forces. Right. The original excuses given was, one, he was not physically fit, and, second, that he had blisters on his feet from new boots, and both of those are just insane assertions. Not true. And all of it really can explain what he did and when he did it was being recruited out of Special Forces for covert operations. And if, indeed, he was the McVeigh who was in the hotel room in Arizona and rented the room at a discount using the military ID, then he's still in the military. Yes. So. And that's another thing that the American people don't know, that he had an active duty military ID card which he used to rent a motel room. If that's the McVeigh we're talking about. If that's the McVeigh we're talking about. There are several McVeighs. You have to understand that, ladies and gentlemen. But this person. I agree. This person who rented that room at that motel has been identified by the FBI as the Timothy McVeigh that they have in custody. Right. Right. And used a current military ID to get the military discount. Yes. And this was after he was supposedly separated from the service. Yes. So it looks more and more likely, logical, plausible that he was recruited for covert ops and is now the patsy in this whole thing. Mm-hmm. And with all of the federal complicity, FBI and CIA votes, and involvement of other foreign national parties perhaps participating, they're going to vilify the militias and patriots with this. And if they. They're going to try. They're going to try. Yeah. If they succeed in convicting McVeigh, which I think is pretty unlikely really, they'll never really bring to justice the true perpetrators of this crime. I don't think they really want to convict him. And I don't think they're going to convict him. And I think that's going to cause an uproar throughout this country. That's going to be the end of the jury system in our courts. You know, and we've had an event that pretty much supports that premise as well, when in December of 95, the prosecution offered a plea bargain deal to McVeigh, where he would plead guilty in exchange for 10 years in a foreign prison and a complete change of ID, and he could disappear in the Federal Witness Protection Program at the end of that time. Yes. American people don't know about that either. No, but we have that straight from the horse's mouth right out of Stephen Jones' office. Yes. So, and of course, they turned down that plea bargain. But the prosecution doesn't offer a plea bargain unless they think they need it. Unless they think they're going to lose the case. That's right. Or unless they think that McVeigh might get convicted, and they don't want him to be. That could be. It's so useful to them in some purpose. Yeah, that could be also. So, you know, we're speculating here, and I know we're getting up to the top of the hour. But, yeah, McVeigh was offered a plea bargain. Jones refused the plea bargain. I don't think they're going to convict the guy, and I don't think anything of any significance or truth is going to come out of the Denver trial. Thank you so much, Michelle. We've got to go. Okay, bye-bye. Bye-bye. And, folks, for your information, the annual conference will be in the state of Arizona from June 30th through and including July 4th. And we will have details about that on Monday. We have limited seating. We have limited facilities. This year it will include meals and a whole bunch of things at a fantastic price, and you're not going to want to miss it. So don't miss Monday's broadcast when I give you all the particulars on the annual conference, which will be held in the state of Arizona from June 30th through and including July 4th, so you can start making your plans right now. Good night, and God bless each and every single one of you. And thank you, Michelle, for being the wonderful guest that you always are and the most wonderful woman doing the most wonderful work that you are doing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you live in the Round Valley, you may pick up Oklahoma City Day 1 at Stuart Books on Main Street in Springerville and save yourself $5. At Stuart Books on Main Street in Springerville, save yourself $5. This is the Voice of Freedom. Thank you. Thank you. Nuura anything. Oh! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. these most of the time. Thank you. Thank you.