Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But after that was said about my son and I had time to reflect, think, examine how I felt, I couldn't get past that wall that what was said about my son was wrong, but then how was it right for me to say the same thing about people who were born different than I was because of their skin color, because of their faith, without being hypocritical. And again, I don't want to convey to the listeners that getting over racist ideas and political thoughts and organized racism is something that a person does in 48 hours or 24 hours. It's been a year and a half now, and I still struggle with racist ideas. I still struggle with sexism. But unlike what I was doing in the past, I confronted it. I confronted it by the people that I associate with today. I confronted it internally, now hiding behind something. The group that you were a member of and national spokesperson for Rosarian Nation, what separates Rosarian Nation from other organized racist groups? What's their focus? Well, for instance, the Klan wears a white sheet and the Rosarian Nation wore a blue shirt. There's really no difference. Both are becoming part of the Christian identity network. And it's the Christian identity that people in this country really need to start concerning themselves with. The Christian identity is the name of a religious movement. Right. It is the religion that the racists have developed. It gave me a higher justification for my hatred. It also induced me and other people to go out and commit crimes in the name of God. People would like to think, well, this is just an offbeat religion. You don't have to worry about it. This is a religion that teaches that white people are the sons of God. And that is their duty to exterminate Jewish people and people of color. And again, it's more than just sitting around and talking about these things and reading the Bible. I'll point out that since 1982, 20 people have been shot and killed because of Christian identity believers. Numerous crimes have happened. Armored car robberies, the shooting death of Alan Bird, the Jewish talk show host, bombings of synagogues, churches, Catholic priests, attempted bombings of NAACP buildings, shootouts with law enforcement officials. These are all the things that are associated with Christian identity. How large would you say the Christian identity movement is? About 60,000 people. Is there a founder of that movement? Well, there would be many people who would be considered a founder. Dr. Swift, a former Ku Klux Klan rifle instructor who is now dead, would pretty much just consider the founder. Christian identity, like any other religion, organized religion, has its two separate factions. Both factions teach racism. This is how they approach that racism. One faction teaches that God created everybody but the biblical commandments and the Bible were for white people and white people only, and God will deal with his enemies when he returns. Two seed line Christian identity teaches that as a white person you are commanded to go out and to kill Jewish people and black people today, here on earth and in the heavens. Also, two seed line Christian identity teaches that Adolf Hitler was a biblical prophet of God. I mean, I would use the Bible to show that Hitler was a biblical prophet. You will find swastikas, you will find all the neo-Nazi paraphernalia that is associated with Nazism at Christian identity compounds. This segment of Christian identity that preaches killing Jews and people of color. You call this the two seed line. What does two seed mean? Well, it comes from the biblical passage in the Bible of Genesis 315 where God told Adam, God will put enmity between your seed and my seed, your seed being the seed of man. To fully explain that, I have to back up a little bit and almost give you the identity doctrine, but identity teaches that Eve, instead of eating an apple, that she had sex with Satan. That that was the written proof. And as a result, produced Cain. And Cain is considered the father of all Jews. Or, well, and Satan, the grandfather or whatever, using the selected biblical passages to reinforce that. So that would make all Jews the children of Satan. Yes. And that is why this taught Christian identity compounds around the country and at churches. There are 300 identity churches in the country. There's an identity college in Grand Pass, Oregon. There are numerous compounds, Pennsylvania, Utah, Idaho, Oklahoma. I think the goal of Aryan Nation is to create a separate nation. Within, yes. For white. Yes. We would take that as a territorial imperative. And we would take the five states of the Pacific Northwest and turn them into an all white country as a starting point. It certainly was not the cure-all or that was the final answer or whatever. The final answer is closely equated to the final solution that was implemented in Nazi Germany. And that was exterminating people based on their race, based on their faith, based on if it were genetic defects or not. You had no problem when you were a member with the idea of exterminating people? No, no. At Aryan Nations you can purchase literature that denies the Holocaust, but you can also purchase materials that prove, or show for the Aryans anyway, that Hitler was just doing God's work. It must be a remarkable lack of empathy to think that extermination would be okay. Well. And that some people aren't really people. Yeah. There's the whole crux. When you no longer consider someone to be a person, then that person is viable or open to any type of humiliation and or no. The other thing is, when you are having constant Bible indoctrinations, that to go out and kill people is a thing to do. Or is done in the name of God. I can think of a Bible verse that was used repeatedly to justify killing. What was that? In the book of Jeremiah, the Old Testament book of Jeremiah, I believe it's chapter 50 verse 21. And it's, Thou art thy Bible acts and weapons of war. And with evil we were breaking the feces, the nations, and the kingdom of the world. And so, there then was that biblical justification. In Luke, it says, If you do not own a sword, a sword of your cloak and buy one. Well, today, that is a, um, an M16. So again, there is biblical justification to hate people. You can hate anyone. Down through the ages, we've used the Bible to justify our hatred and the revanche of social agenda. If you're joining us, my guest is Floyd Cochran. He's a former national spokesman and youth recruiter of the white supremacist group, Aryan Nation. He left that group about a year and a half ago and is now speaking nationally against organized hate and racist groups. What inspired you to actually move to the Aryan Nation compound? Well, a bunch of events kind of came together. The fact that in 1889 I became divorced. Sort of, I'm no longer married, I'm no longer, I mean I have children, but it was my ex-wife. The reason I picked Aryan Nation was, let's say, versus the claim. Was the fact that Aryan Nation is going to be a piece of property. Mm-hmm. They had a definitive idea about the borders. They were going to build this country, and mom was going to stay home, and dad was going to work, and there was going to be small farms and businesses. For a person who was very unstable in your own personal life, here is stability. I grew up in foster homes all over the state of New York. Here was something very stable. I had a failed marriage. Here was something very stable. So not only with myself, but with lots of young people, that is an attraction. And within the racist movement, that has not gone unnoticed among the younger people. That is a propaganda technique. That is a tool to recruit other young people. Creating a family for them. Creating a family. Giving you self-esteem. Giving you a uniform. Giving you a title. Giving you God. Mm-hmm. It's a very powerful inducement, especially when you're 18 years old. Can you describe something about what the compound is like and what living there is like? Well, the compound I lived on in North Idaho was the national headquarters for the four area nations. And it was not particular compound. It was 20 acres of land. They had a bunkhouse. It has a guard tower. It has a guard shack. It does have a place of worship. There is showers, facilities, things of that nature. Places for people that bring their tanks and their camping equipment and things. Do you live in a tank? No, I lived in, I had a small camper at the time. Because I was an officer, it was allotted to me. In the spring is annual Hitler Youth Festival. So upwards of 150 young people would show up from around the country and Canada to be indoctrinated, to learn how to hate people based on the Bible, to practice martial arts training. The women would have separate courses in child rearing. I think an area that we haven't covered, that I would very much like to cover, and it's a relatively new area of the racist movement. Very few people have taken a look at it. Now there's a number of young women entering the racist movement today in record numbers. What is it? In the past, women would join with their husbands or with their boyfriends. Today, women are not only joining, but some of them have even formed their own organizations. Aryan Women's League, for instance. Oh, lots of reasons. I noticed that the overwhelming majority of these women came from single parent homes, where there was a lack of authority or structure. And that plays a big role in the developing of a young person. The other was pushing those buttons. When I would go and talk with people, when I would go and try to recruit people, if it was a young lady, I would talk about, in an Aryan society, a man will take care of his children. And if you're a single mom, that's a powerful thing. In an Aryan society, that's going to work, and you're going to be put on a pedestal. There are still millions of people who have that traditional idea of mom and dad. The Aryan society has decided the racial context to it. And that's something we have to start examining because women, by their very nature and very fact, bring stability and infrastructure to the racist movement that they've never had before. Infrastructure, the women have developed programs to, if a white supremacist is arrested, the women send clothes and birthday cards and money to the kids. They take up that collection. The women are in much more contact with one another from various organizations than the men are. Women are a great recruiting technique. I would use attractive women to stand in front of the camera. Again, it's a great recruiting technique. Also, women... Recruiting for men and women. And women, right. Has it become a way to, like, meet cheeks or something? Yeah. Well, much like we sell cars with women. I mean, is there any correlation between a woman in a bikini and a new car? Or, you know, other than the fact that the woman in a bikini helps sell the car a little bit faster. Uh-huh. So, again, in terms of selling the property and the techniques, it's still the same. I'm wondering if there was an initiation that you had to go through. Well... Or if your loyalty was tested in any way before you were allowed to live there. In various... Well, not as much as far as being allowed to live there. First of all, because of the paranoia throughout the racist movement, everyone was watching you all the time. Mm-hmm. It didn't matter how long you'd been there. They were always watching you. The other thing was, your loyalty wasn't tested so much like they say, as you do this and this will prove that you're loyal. Uh... What was tested more was your metal. And E-T-T-L-E. Um... I was given different jobs to do and then watched sell well and handle things. Like what? Well, at first it was as simple as mowing the lawn and chopping wood. Mm-hmm. Then it was doing guard duty. And then it was being put in charge of people who were mowing the lawn and chopping wood. And then at the first time that Idaho celebrated Dr. King's holiday in January of 1991, I was put in charge of seven skinheads to be down and attend the Martin Luther King celebrations. And that turned out, as far as the airings were concerned, so well that I was appointed a propagandist. And what was successful about that? Well, nothing. I'm still trying to debate as other than the fact that we walked into the place and sat down and it totally disrupted everything. The, uh, they wouldn't let the people out of the room when we left. The next day when I picked up the newspaper out of 14 paragraphs covering Dr. King's holiday, we had 11 of them. Uh... The... Just the fact that, uh, showing up there. And I kept everything, the people that were with me under control and so forth, and got very favorable press. Favorable press in that the newspapers reported I was personable, that I was educated, that I was kind of fun to be around. Those type of things gave me all kinds of credibility within the community. Was all press seen as good press because it was a sign of your power? Well, for myself it was. Uh, instinctively most racists were referred to the press as being Jewish controlled. And approach it very hostile. Being a person who was raised on television and watching, uh, people sell whatever it was they wanted to sell on TV and radio, I realized that, uh, the camera has replaced the pen as being which one is the mightier. And if I smiled and I gave reporters coffee and notice when they come to visit, and I asked them about their family, that they were one much more relaxed around me. The questions weren't quite so hard. And what they didn't realize was I had spent hours rehearsing in front of the camera over and over again. And, uh, in two interviews I realized that reporters were going to ask basically the same 25 questions. So the responses would seem to be spontaneous. Uh, and then again, I went from milking cows in upstate New York, and then in 1991 in the Newsweek magazine. Why? Because I was a pretty good spokesman. I didn't allow myself to be trapped in the situation. I didn't solve racial epitaphs. Uh, that came across as a, as the appearance of a reasonable person. My guest is Floyd Cochran, a former spokesperson and recruiter for the white supremacist group Aryan Nation. More after this break. This is Fresh Air. Back with former white supremacist Floyd Cochran. I want to talk with you more about your recruiting techniques. You were recruiting young people for Aryan Nation. Mm-hmm. Tell us a little bit about what you would do. Would you, would you use? Would you go to, I don't know, a college campus or an area where there are young people and talk very explicitly about how Jews were the offspring of the devil, the blacks are mud people? What language would you use? It would all depend on the circumstances. For instance, I went to Oregon to talk about the spotted owl issue. Mm-hmm. On the surface, the spotted owl issue was no, didn't appear to be a racial issue, but I made it one. How? By pointing out that this was just another example of a government set-aside program. Setting aside the white water in favor of a, of a, of a bird. Another affirmative action program, another government set-aside program. And then from there, I had the whole field or, or to myself. Lots of times, if I went into a community, first of all, I would hit the media. Because media was my most, probably the most successful ally I had in recruiting people. Even if it was bad media, it was still media nonetheless. The other was, I would just sit and listen to young people. First of all, I wasn't interested in people over the age of 40. And people in the racist movement aren't interested in recruiting people over the age of 40. Really? Well, first of all, you don't have that useful ambition, that restfulness, that idealism. You're somewhat cynical. You have children. You're set in your ways. You've got a job. Things are done in you. Also, it's not so easy to mold your mind when you're 40 years old. But a 14 to 25 year old kid, you can do all kinds of things. And the racist movement has shown that in the last 20 years, the last 10 years. So again, I would sit and listen to what the young people understand. We're having problems at home. We're having problems at school. And maybe work on that. If it was, if I noticed there was more of a religious type thing, then I would pull out the Bible. Or I'd ask them, let's use your Bible. Because Christian identity is a faith that uses the same Bible you'll find in any Protestant church. Not a Bible that the areas you grew up are a Klansman. It's just the interpretation. When I went to Seattle, for instance, I went and looked at the demographics and saw that Seattle had a large gay and lesbian population. And that's just the target set of picks. When I was in California, it was illegal Mexicans. When I was in Tennessee, it was African Americans. So again, it required some studying on my part. From a propaganda point of view, anything that worked. Lots of times I would use what I had perceived to be my enemies, their own words against them. For instance, the head of the Northwest Coalition against malicious harassment had said that all racists were transparent if you hold them up to the white. You could see that. I submitted an application to join the Human Rights Commission as a racist. And I used these dirty words. You know, the Human Rights Commission talks about two sides of every issue, fairness and so forth, democracy. Well, we'll see if those are transparent words. Again, playing word games. But how much would you talk explicitly about hate, about how blacks and Jews aren't human? In public athletics, would you say? Or did you find a euphemism to tackle all that? I used a euphemism. Crime and welfare. You know, I talk about crime and welfare. They own the media. That thing who they is? Right. Until the person, the person came back for a second visit. It was very explicit. But for an opening line or whatever, I would just try to be myself. If a young person showed a lot of interest in the community of the compound, that person was made the focus of everything for two weeks. What is it? We would tell them that we loved them. We would give them hugs. We would give them a uniform. We would give them some responsibilities. The fact that I was an adult, even though that young people may not like to admit it, there's still that desire to please adults. I think the biggest thing, probably one of the most successful was, we're family. We work together and we play together. But I think what the young people need to know is that once they get arrested, the adult leadership disappears. And I can point to numerous incidents where young people have committed crimes thinking that they were going to please the adult leadership. And the adult leadership said, we don't know you. I want to get back to the language that you use when recruiting people. What are some of the other code words? Zod, which is the euphemism in the racist movement for Zionist occupational government. The belief that Jewish people control the government. Within Christian identity, not referring to God as, let's say, Jehovah, but referring to him as Yahweh. Again, it's a different word that people aren't used to. We would talk about crime and welfare. We talked about drugs a lot. And again, in more of a racial context, there are very few racists today who are standing on the street corner and saying, let's go out and kill people. Because first of all, you'd be put in jail for them. Second of all, realizing that propaganda effect, that doesn't work. And again, as it works, what makes the racists more dangerous? Because they have realized these things, and they're becoming slicker. In public, I would tell people that I was a white separatist. Sounds much softer on the ears, much more palatable, kind of just have different ideas. But on the compound, we'd roughed all that. We talked explicitly about killing people. I sent in a conversation, talking about what to do when a dead body falls out of an oven. You pick it up, put it back in yourself, or you go find someone to do it for you. I mean, those were the kind of conversations. We talked about hanging, filthy-minded politicians and preachers. We talked about killing gay and lesbian people. But in public, no. With the exception of gay and lesbian people. Was it easier to get away with that? Oh, no. The easier society appreciated it. But maybe appreciated isn't the right word. To give you an example, if I walked outside this door here in Philadelphia, and I made anti-black remarks, I'd have to duck. The politicians would attack me, the clergy would attack me, people walking down the street would attack me. I'd go out here and say homophobic remarks, and I would automatically have jumped into 35 to 40 percent of the population will agree with what I'm saying about gay and lesbian people. Floyd Cochran is a former spokesperson and recruiter for the white supremacist group Aryan Nation. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. Floyd Cochran will be back with us in the second part of our show. I remember I once interviewed a former Klansman who had gotten involved in politics. Mm-hmm. And when I asked him if he thought of himself as a racist, he said, well, no, you know, that he'd never really exactly been a racist. The Klansman isn't really a racist group. And I was wondering, like, when you asked somebody, a reporter or anybody outside, are you a racist? How would you respond to that? That I was a racialist. That I was proud of my heritage and culture, one's named Hain. And then I would move to another subject, not allowing the reporter the time to come up with another question or to think that one through. No, no, why couldn't you say, since it's so clearly a racist group, what would be the harm in admitting that you were racist? Well, I think I did by saying I am a racialist. So you're avoiding, you're avoiding, and then you're saying, I have pride in that group as opposed to saying I hate other groups. There are very few people in this country, very few people in this country, who really, if they are haters, want to publicly admit that they hate. It's not a human trait. Same thing I hate. And then that was one of the problems I had with the Aryans, in that I was more of a positive and they were negative. And racism doesn't thrive in a positive atmosphere for very long. But I was looking at angles of what can we do for the population, not what we are against. What would you gain by electing an Aryan national official? Not, this is what I'm against, this is what I'm for. And again, it's just a simple switching of words. So you'd never say, when you were with Aryan nation, you'd never say to a reporter or to even a recruit that, yes, I'm a racist. No, no, no, point one. Well, it's a true to recruit, yeah. And if I'm someone in my uniform, it would be very hard to. Isn't it? Yeah. But again, there was, I found with reporters, the ones I worked with anyway, and partially because racism sells, was that as long as I sat up with a friendly smile and didn't fronten on this person, they would report exactly what I said word for word. So it was up to me. That is how I looked at it. And that was, I believe, fairly successful. I was in the paper all the time, I don't know. And what is funny, as a racist I could come into a town and I'd be on the front page of the newspaper, and I'd be in one of the top leading stories. So yeah, I'd travel all over the country, and it's page three and four. Again, because racism sells newspapers, racism sells TV advertising and things like that. You described yourself as a self-taught racist. Mm-hmm. When did you start becoming a racist? Well, as a kid I was always interested in history and politics. Mm-hmm. And I remember at the age of ten I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Inside the Third Reich. And it was a hero to you. Yeah, I was very fascinated. I mean, there was this person that rose up from the gutter, the flags, the marches, the parades. I was very fascinated with that. That, and coupled with what I was learning from society, from schools, from my parents, from foster homes, with really no one standing up saying, no, that's wrong. I mean, this was in the 60s, 70s. An observation I would kind of like to point out, if you watch and read most of the things covering the young people and the racist movement today, you will see them all with fascination for a uniform. Be it skinheads or the Klan or Aryan Nations or whatever, that fascination with some type of uniform. Mm-hmm. As an individual, I intellectually continue to grow. But on a very personal and emotional level, I stopped at about the age of 13. And when you think about it, that's the age when young boys are into being, you start that development of being macho and playing with, you know, the board games or the guns and being classed in with Rambo type of things. But I saw numerous, just about everyone I ever met in the racist movement were, on an emotional level, were somewhere between the ages of 13 and 15. You said you grew up in a lot of foster homes. I know, I'm sitting here. How did you end up in foster homes? Yeah, my parents put me in one when I was 10. Well, it was a combination. It was my parents and the state. Yeah, I was having problems. I was running away a lot. I had schools. So that wasn't very bright. I didn't get along with family members. So at the age of 10, I went into a foster home. And for myself, in that regard, it was my brothers and sisters. They all got to live at home. I was the only one that went into a foster home. And I had a big, a big whatever. Are you angry, too? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was nothing that my kid could do at the age of 10 that I would say just, here, you know, go away. The only time I ever saw my parents after that was for a funeral or a wedding. You know. Since you grew up knowing very few black and Jewish and not being close to them, where did your stereotypes come from? What made you... Television. Oh. Uh-huh. I grew up in the farming community. And the first thing that you hated in upstate New York is New York City. Mm-hmm. For a wide variety of reasons. And I would listen to people talk about all the welfare people in New York City. All the crime being committed. And every image I ever saw come across to you as a person of color. George Bush validated everything I ever thought about people of color with the Willie Horton ad. Oh, you're sure. But I'm so hungry. I'm so hungry. You're pup is close. Love you so right. Anybody go back? Where do you remember? See Saunday. I'm so hungry. Can you<|ar|> if you don't even know me? I'm lucky. Hi. Fantastic, sir. It's over, with not anything, Rose. It's over. It's over. And to me. It's over, from 1970. It's over. It ain't over, no to me. It's over. You're at the veryашini. I've never knew. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. pretend to be. And I had long suspected that, but was not sure until I heard it from somebody who knows, and not just Mr. Cochran. Now, if you like the hour of time, folks, and if you want to prepare yourself for the future, if you've been watching the stock market, you know that I have predicted exactly what's happening, and I'm telling you now, it's going to go much, much lower. You're going to see a rise in the price of gold and silver. It always happens. 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And I've got to say, that you are exhibiting the classic stupidity of the sheeple of the world, even when they know they should do something, they don't do it. Isn't that strange? But, it's your life, it's your family, it's your home, it's your bank account, it's your business, so you do whatever you want to do. I hope that you will prepare and take the proper precautions to protect yourself and your loved ones. And I don't care whether you do it with my sponsor or not, neither does my sponsor. See, they sponsor this program because of the message that's going out to the world. If they can get enough business to pay for the outlay for the air time and the satellite time, that will make them happy. But it's not their primary goal. So, do something, folks. Even if it's with someone else, do something. But I hope that if you're going to do something, that you'll show a little bit of loyalty to the people who have brought you this program that have attempted to warn you and prepare you. But if not, that's okay, as long as you do something. If you call Swiss America Trading, mention my name, William Cooper. Ask for the newsletters and all the literature that you're entitled to is listening to the hour of the time. And while you're at it, thank them for sponsoring this program. It's 1-800-289-2646. That's 1-800-289-2646. Do it now, folks. You'll be glad that you did. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. to go and speak to colleges as a racist. And again, they weren't expecting much. That automatically gave me the advantage. But this must have been one of the real appeals to you of actually remaining in RIA. Yeah, and picking up a newspaper and reading that I'm far more dangerous because I was educated and unarticulate. I was far more dangerous than the adverse plans than because I was educated and unarticulate. I did all kinds of things, all kinds of things, and almost to the point of even driving me more, I'd say. You really knew how to play the media when you were spokesperson with the RIA Nation. And so, of course, you can imagine there's a part of me wondering now if you really know how to play me. That's the only reason I... A year and a half ago, I could understand that. Uh-huh. I think I've done a lot of things in the last year and a half. The only thing I can do is come on. And I said I've testified at Congress's... About what? About what? I testified to Montana State Senate to include sexual orientation, the Moisture Sprachment Law, the Reveal of the Sobbing Law. Uh-huh. I've helped to program a skinhead here in Philadelphia. I've worked with umpteen law enforcement agencies, numerous. I go into high schools. I go into jails. I go into churches and synagogues. In terms of getting paid or anything, the only place I get paid is colleges. Everything else comes out of... I use that college money to do all these other things. I also am writing materials that are sent out free of charge to people. Do you face a lot of skepticism or... Not so much now. But early on. Yes. Well, what proof do I have? Right. You know? And the thing is, I wasn't... I'm not standing up to say to people, I changed because I had a born-again experience. Uh-huh. It would be so easy to do that. Right. Instead of saying, I've changed because I'm a Christian now. And people would look, you know... I wouldn't have to really come up with any proof. And I know enough of the Bible that I could convince them. I wasn't under arrest, so I didn't have a jailhouse conversion. I was a rising star in a racist movement and walked off. Yeah. People don't understand that. That just isn't... You know, people want proof. But I've built up a good, solid track record. Uh... In fact, we're getting ready to start an organization for parents whose children had become racist. That's probably within... Well, next month, April 15th. Uh... Parents... Because... There's no place to turn. If you're 18 years old and want to lead the racist movement, where are you going to go? You're going to give up your plans and you're going to go live in a tent? No. Not when you're 18. If... If your child gets involved with a racist group, where are you going to go as a parent? I work with hundreds of parents across the country who don't know what to do. Yeah, I mean, they're totally devastated. They're just brought. They didn't raise their children to be Nazis. No. Uh... They didn't raise their kid to become a skinhead. Go... Go join a group. Cut off yourself and the rest of your family. So, what do you want to do with your life in the future now? I mean, it's just been a couple years since you left. Uh-huh. Do you have, like, political or professional ambitions? No. Someday I'll be milking towns again. You know, I'd say that... Well, I'd like to go to school. Because if I had found out anything, that, uh... One, I can talk and the other one is, I like... It's a semblance of teaching when they come and speak to your class or your communications class. They're fairly good at it. Do you think you have to protect yourself against, uh, people who might want to... Kill me? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've got a red Doberman. I've made a point of him and I being on some national TV shows. When I'm at home, I don't sleep too far from a gun. Uh... I brought somebody with me when I came here. You know how I... A bodyguard somebody? Well, not so much a bodyguard, but just to have somebody with me. Uh-huh. Uh... I'm getting all kinds of numerous threats and so forth. So, you know, I've got to be careful in any manner. I mean, I'm a human. I don't let it get to me because the paranoia would drive me crazy. Right. You know, I try to make a joke out of it or something. But, uh... I'm sure the racists know where I live. I change my phone number about every three months, but I've had the same address. And I write articles on women in hate groups, how hate groups recruit young people, things like that that is mailed out. So, that's pretty well known. My guest is former white supremacist Floyd Cochran. More in a minute. This is Fresh Air. On March 31st, the last American troops are scheduled to leave Somalia. I'm Marty Moskowain inviting you to join Radio Times tomorrow at 10 to review America's military involvement in that country's political and social problems. Then at 11 o'clock, the growing interest in the martial arts. We'll hear from some practitioners and take your calls. That's Tuesday morning from 10 to 12 on 91FM WHRYFM in Philadelphia. Tonight at 9 o'clock, 91FM will present a special edition of Charlie Rose, an interview not heard on TV 12. Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on Mideast Peace. We have great opportunities, but at the same time, many dangers. We have to take calculated risks for peace. Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin tonight on a special edition of Charlie Rose on WHRYFM Philadelphia. Back with Floyd Cochran, former spokesperson and recruiter for the white supremacist group Aryan Nation. I have another recruiting question. It seems to me that some of the people who want to join organized hate groups would be kind of nuts. Probably some of the potential recruits might be a little on the psychotic side. Oh, very much. And out of your control after you recruited them. Oh, very much. I used to have to... This used to be nightmares for several reasons. First of all, because I made myself an outcast by my choice in society. Uh-huh. People who would be an outcast in most societies, be criminally minded or mentally or whatever, most people need a place to hang out. So they go to the extremist parties, both left and right. It's something strictly of the extreme right. And those people, part of that feeling of wanting to do something to prove themselves of getting fired up because they are mentally unstable, would go out into a crime. And I would spend all this time, let's say, in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, working and building up a lot of credibility and stuff. And somebody would go and who I had never seen before and was only safe for two weeks and go away, would come along and throw a lock through the window or whatever. And yeah. Or be downtown and attack a Jewish person or a black person or whatever. And everything I've worked on would have been gone. So yes, there are the psychotic... What would you do with them? How would you handle that? They would simply leave. Well, when I say leave... You'd get rid of them? Yeah. And take them downtown and say, here's a bus take or go away. You'll join someone else or they'll do whatever it is you do. I have a last question for you. Being in any cult group or organized hate group, it gives you a sense of certainty. You know what you believe in. You know what's right and what's wrong. You know who the good people are and who the evil people are and how you can do away with evil. Yes. You're out of that now and it kind of leaves you in this more ambiguous world where... Like a vacuum sometimes. Yeah. So how have you been dealing with the ambiguity of not having this... the physiology that you can absolutely believe in? Knowing that what I'm doing is right. And believing what I'm doing now is right. I have times I struggle with that. There are times a couple of months ago where a combination of a lot of pressure and different things of wondering. And what am I doing? Is it making anything good? Is it making any sense? Or am I just the little side show type of thing? Mm-hmm. So I received a bunch of letters from a bunch of high school kids from Pittsburgh who liked what... who told me that some of the things I told them helped motivate them to fight against racism nor that it moved them or whatever. But yeah, I'd like anyone else to have those days and I wonder is it really all worth... worth this kind of thing? Because it's more than just giving some talks. And I don't do these talks. Well, again, I spoke at Colby. The talk lasted three and a half hours. I mean, I talked for an hour. The rest of the time is questions. Right. When you answer questions from 200 people that run the gauntlet of everything who I slept with to... Let's talk about the most abstract idea in political science. Do I really need this? Because I don't have much of a... Let's say a personal life. It's hard to find... I'm divorced, so it's... It's hard to find friends because you're afraid that someone's going to come kill me. Why? The other is... I'm very serious. Yeah. It's hard to find a date because of that... Almost that same factor. First of all, the baggage is... I'm a racist. This guy must be... You know, he's going to beat me or do this, that, whatever. But the other thing is... Someone's going to come shoot you, kill you or whatever. So in terms of having a personal life, I don't. This is my personal life. Traveling and talking. It's very easy for me to talk to 300 people or 400 people or 800 people than it is to talk one-on-one, two-on-one. But it's much easier for me and you to talk because this thing is sitting in front of us than the microphone. If... Right. Well, thank you a lot for talking with us. Thanks for having me here. Dr. Gesson, good time. Floyd Cochran is a former spokesperson for the white supremacist group Aryan Nation. Fresh Air senior producer is Danny Miller. Our engineers this week are Roger Voblitus, Joyce Lieberman and Chris Fraley. ... Wide Uni, the The End Well, folks, that's it for the Hour of the Time tonight. I hope you learned something. Sorry that it's a short program, but everything just got turned around and upside down because of the time mix-up tonight. So we'll see you again tomorrow night, one hour earlier, 9 p.m. Arizona time. You're going to have to calculate the time in your part of the world on your own. Good night, folks. And God bless you all. Good night, folks. And God bless you all. And God bless you all. Good night. By Good night, folks, Thank you. Thank you. Good night. Vicente,isms by Emilyappos, Thank you.