These are talons beings, dear Wang Cloud, from Libellium, Jews, won the latest in code to provide power supply,escller, certains who will prepare you. The End Hello folks, welcome once again to the Hour of the Time. I'm your host, William Cooper. Many of you have been calling wondering why so many reruns have been played over the last couple of weeks. And I think if your ears are good, you have already figured it out. I've been very ill. In fact, for several days I could not speak at all. I'm just beginning to recover my voice and I'm not supposed to be talking. And if I talk for very long, I'm going to lose it again. So you're going to hear an interview tonight that you've never heard before. This was actually taped on September the 21st, 1992 in Phoenix, Arizona. The guest tonight is Jim Mosley, who has been involved in the research of the UFO phenomena for many, many years. So that's what you're going to be listening to. For those of you who have called worried about me and about my illness, I thank you. It makes me feel very, very good to know that so many of you are so concerned about my health. I also had on my message service, I left the message speaking just about in the same voice that you're hearing now, that I had been ill. And people would listen to this and at the end say, when are you going to have some new shows? How come we've got so many reruns? All I can say is that's the sheeple factor coming out in somebody. It just is beyond me how somebody can listen to that message and still ask a question like that. But anyway, on we go. I want you to stay tuned, folks, this Wednesday night for a very important show about the IRS. You see, we're the only show in the whole world, radio, television, or anywhere, that's ever exposed the IRS and the Federal Reserve for what they really are. And now they're starting to practice damage control. And I want you to pay attention who is putting out the damage control. Remember that you weren't hearing anything on radio about the National Rifle Association. And so I came out and said, if you join the NRA, you've registered your guns. Now you're starting to hear big ads on certain talk shows about the NRA trying to work their damage control. And then on the Wednesday night, the same Wednesday night that we do our IRS show, a famous talk show personality had someone from the IRS whistleblowers practicing damage control. I've got news for you, folks. The IRS is in charge of the whistleblowers. And if you work for the IRS and you want to blow the whistle, if you go to them, I guarantee you you'll be in jail tomorrow. Understand that. None of them quoted any points of law. They didn't quote any of the IRS rules or regulations. They didn't give you real answers. And I really like that one answer about is the IRS really an agency of the federal government or is it a private organization? He said, well, the IRS has always been autonomous. He didn't give a real answer. Folks, I'm going to try to get that guy on this show. I'm going to interview him by phone if he's got the guts. And we're going to talk about points and law-specific points. And I'm going to bury that guy under his own bullshit. Because that's exactly what it is. Remember, they're starting to show their true colors. And the only place you're going to hear the real, real nitty-gritty is on this show and nowhere else. On the other shows, when people ask you about the Freemasons, they dance around and say, oh, it couldn't possibly be a conspiracy. The Freemasons aren't involved. Well, someday I'm going to get an expert in Freemasonry on this show. And we're going to cover it, but they never do. And when they do, the person that's the expert will be a Freemason. Mark my word, folks. Now, I'd like to talk some more. I've got a lot to talk about. My trip to England, everything. But I can't. I just can't. I hope you'll understand. And the doctor has given me orders to shut my mouth. And that's exactly what I'm going to do. So listen to this interview. It's a good interview. I think you'll like it. And if you're interested in the UFO phenomena at all, you're really going to like it. If you're not, I think you better listen to it. And you better get interested in UFO phenomena. Because it's got something to do with all of our futures. So without further ado, folks. Here's the interview I did in September the 21st, 1992 in Phoenix, Arizona. At, I forget what hotel. I think it was the Holiday Inn Hotel. With James Mosley. The publisher of a very sarcastic and satirical newsletter called Saucer Smear. Hello, thanks. And once again, welcome to the Hour of the Time. We have a guest this evening who has been involved for many years in what some call the UFO community or the UFO research community. He has a publication called Saucer Smear that is disseminated to a few select individuals. How he chooses these individuals, I do not know. But one arrives in my mailbox religiously. And I think Jim has some insights into the UFO phenomenon that may not have occurred to you, our listener. And I think that I value his opinion. We have met at many of the conferences around the country, which I go to. And sometimes as a featured speaker. Sometimes just as a passionately interested observer. But Jim, welcome to the Hour of the Time. Well, thank you for having me, Bill. I'm glad to be here. What got you started in your interest in UFOs? Well, way back in 1953, when I was a young, innocent person, or relatively so, I met a professional writer. And I was just trying to sort of break into writing. And he knew that I had an interest in UFOs, a vague interest, because we got talking about it. And he said that if I went around the country and did the legwork, so to speak, and interviewed all these people that had been in those early UFO books, and tried to get to the bottom of the UFO subject, then he would co-author a book with me, a real professional book. And that sounded real good to me. And I wanted an excuse to go do this anyway. So I took my car, and I had some time and money. I went for about three and a half, four months, in the latter part of 1953 and early 1954. And I interviewed 200 or 300 people who had been written up as contactees or as ordinary people who had made sightings or as scientists who had commented on the subject of life on other planets or anybody like that. And then I got all this data together, and then we never did do the book. There's a punchline there. But that led to my original publication called Sucker News, which I began in 1954, and continued for quite a number of years, and then finally dropped in the 70s, early 70s. And then, to make a long story short, I came back into it again in a way that more suits my own personality, which is I'm not really interested in sightings anymore, especially after all these years. I'm interested in the personalities and the new aspects of the subject that come along, such as abductions or MJ-12 or Area 51, which is your specialty. All these things excite and interest me, but, I mean, a lot of it bores the hell out of me, too. So I do it my way in my magazine and let the other people take care of the sightings and what I call the mundane stuff. When you first were introduced to people who said that they had talked to someone from another planet or that they had experienced a UFO sighting, I know that that was many years ago, and your ideas and your attitudes certainly changed. I know that, too. But what was your first response to these people? I mean, could you sit there and really look them in the eye and keep a straight face and believe what they said, or were you the reluctant skeptic? How would you explain your reaction to what you were hearing? Well, I'll tell you, that's a good question. I remember the George Adamski case, which was the biggest one of the early U.S. 50s. I first read about that. Somebody sent me a newspaper clipping from Boston. I don't know why it was in there. Talked about this professor from Mount Palomar and a doctor who I assumed to be an M.D., and I think five other people who accompanied him on this desert contact, which was the first incident that George Adamski had. And I thought, oh, my God, if it's a professor from Mount Palomar, a medical doctor, and these other people, one was a radio specialist, and they all sounded very high-class. And I thought, well, if they're saying that they met a spaceman on the desert, I should believe it, I suppose. But then I got more into it, you know, when George Adamski lived near Mount Palomar. The professor was self-appointed, or at least appointed by his friends and fans. George Hunt Wigginson had a self-appointed doctorate or something. He was very close to it. I know he never graduated from the University of Arizona, because I checked that out myself. He had no real degree. And the other people were just amateurs. You know, one was a radio ham, and this, that, and the other. So when I got that far with it, I was already getting suspicious. And then one of the people I interviewed on that trip, I just mentioned, was George Adamski and all but one of his witnesses. Then I started to talk to other background people that knew them and had something to add. And then I wrote an expose. So I went all the way from the first flesh of believing it, and I did have the will to believe. I think we all have. Wouldn't it be wonderful, you know, if it were true? Sure. But by the time I finished with George Adamski, I didn't believe a word of it, but I always did like him. And that's another thing that I think you understand. I kind of make two columns, and they have to overlap a little bit. But one is the guy's story. Do I take it seriously? Do I think it's true? Very often the answer is no. But on the other hand, the same guy, like you and I, for instance, we might just be friends without that. Because I grow by what he's like and how he treats me and how he seems to treat other people. And if he's been to Venus on the side, well, I just try not to hold that against him, I thought. Like the fellow we were just sitting with down at the pool. He's been underground in Mars. Other than that, he seems fine. So I won't hold that against him. I sort of divided the same way. I mean, I have another column that's harmless or benevolent. If they're benevolent and they've been underground on Mars or they walk from the sun and talk to... Walking on the sun is slightly hard. You know, they're still nice people and don't seem to be harming anybody. That's okay. If they seem to be malevolent or malicious in their intent, then it's pretty hard for me to be friends with those kinds of things. Well, I agree. You know, sometimes it does. I mean, maybe we shouldn't just name a couple that I feel that their story isn't good and their personal conduct isn't good either. And so then I just don't like them. I mean, it's true. Well, Bud Hopkins comes to mind. Not that you asked, but... Well, Bud Hopkins is a favorite subject of mine. In fact, in my book I documented where he was practicing, in fact, psychotherapy of these people who claimed to have been abducted holding actual group therapy sessions and has no psychological degrees or training or whatever. Or he sees whatsoever. And a doctor who he had conned into getting in there to help him with this stuff brought this to the attention of the state medical board in New York State. And what happened is they never did invest with Bud Hopkins. They took the medical license away from the doctor who made the complaint. That sounds like part of the point. Now, I had somebody I was talking to the other day. We were talking about Bud Hopkins. And I said, as an artist, which is what he's supposed to be, how can he be practicing psychiatry? And this guy came up with a line that I wish I'd come up with. He said, well, he must have heard that psychiatry is an art. And so it's just part of his artistic work. You know, technically, he's absolutely right because psychology is not a science. You're right. It is an art. And the artist needs to change with the artist. You got it. There are so many theories about the practice of psychology that you can take your pick and who knows what's wrong. Well, I've known psychologists and psychiatrists professionally and socially, quite a lot of them. I've been on five-hour radio with big psychiatrists in New York City. And my general conclusion is they're at least as crazy as we are. Most of them. Oh, absolutely. In fact, one study, I thought this was the most interesting study. Of all the studies I've ever looked at in my life, showed that psychologists generally pick the field because they feel that there's something mentally wrong with them and they hope to be able to treat themselves and thus keep it a secret from their family and their friends. You're very close. I've heard that and I think there's a lot of truth in it. And at one point, they had the highest suicide rate of all the professions. And I don't think that's true anymore, but at one point, it certainly was true. I've heard that too. Jim, over the years, what have you come to think about this whole field in general? Well, that's a hard one. There's an awful lot of nonsense. There has to be a germ of truth somewhere. My personal opinion is that insofar as any of this is real, we are dealing with a genuine mystery which is beyond our present-day science. And very simply, as we all know, science has to have an event which can be duplicated under controlled conditions. If you do a certain thing under conditions A through X, right, and you write up a paper on it and another scientist reads it and you set up conditions A through X, same thing happens again, so you're okay. But when you have a UFO sighting or a psychic experience or an abduction or any of these things that are in the weird realm, you might say, they happen, let's assume, but you can't make it happen again under the same conditions. You can't duplicate it. So it boils down to the person's words. You choose to believe them or you don't, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not real or it isn't true on some level. And I think as good as science is, in theory, and as good as our scientific method is, having gotten us to the moon and done real things, there is something lacking in it. It's going to have to be improved and modified and someday, perhaps long after we're gone, I would assume and hope that they're going to find out what all this is about and prove it scientifically, whatever is behind all this. It's not from another planet. I think that's extremely unlikely. More likely, something within our own environment, another dimension, which is a stupid way of putting it, but a lot of people put it that way. I don't know what that quite means. It just means we don't understand. It's something we don't understand and we're not likely to. And if we did understand it, we still couldn't prove it. So you come to a convention like this and you hear people talk, each guy has a different starting point, each guy has a different ending point, but not one of them can prove scientifically any reasonable fraction of what he's saying. So it's his opinion. And if you like it, you listen to it, and if you don't like it, you go to the pool, which is what I was about to do with the other guy. That's all I grabbed you. Right. What about the historical perspective? Do you believe that this interpretation of historical evidence to show that intervention from these people who supposedly right around these flying disks or egg-shaped craft or the many different ways that they've been described, do you think that that's a correct interpretation or do you think that that's... In other words, you're asking if you do, I think that space people have interfered with our past history on Earth? Not necessarily space people, but whoever it is. In other words, if someone back in ancient times wrote that something came down out of the sky and talked to them and this was God and any way that you want to interpret that, do you think that that's a literal interpretation that someone did come from the sky and talked to this person and could have been extraterrestrial or somebody from the future if time travel is real? Or, you know, I'm going to beg the question. It's possible, but it's unproven. I'm an amateur archaeologist as well as being interested in UFOs and I dug for artifacts in Peru years ago and picked up a little archaeology as I went along. I've never studied it or anything. But a few things come to mind. You know, someone like Von Donoghue comes along and he'll look at these designs or drawings or human-like figures on pottery or on cloth or on stones or whatever and he'll say, well, this looks like a space man and this looks like a guy with a helmet on and can't you just see that? Well, you know, that's like the old ink black test. I mean, you can see what you want. If you're determined to believe in space men, then you can reinterpret some of these things the way you like but, you know, conventional archaeologists go to the other extreme. They insist that Columbus was the first guy to, you know, get here and he wasn't and, you know, they have a lot of ideas which are untenable but they stick to them. So, you know, you can go to either extreme. I think our prehistory is so poorly known and understood and so little of it has been dug up and properly analyzed. There again, you have a mystery area. I don't think there's an answer to that. At least, I don't have it. Anything's possible. You wonder, for instance, genetically, how the human race went from a relatively primitive, almost animalistic state probably not more than 10,000 years ago and so quickly, you know, 10,000 years and the whole evolution of this planet is just a moment in time. how did we come this far this quickly? Pretty soon, you know, there was the Egyptians who were relatively civilized and then on up from there and were somewhat civilized perhaps. But that all happened awfully quick so maybe there was some interference from some other realm. I mean, it's not inconceivable but it is sure not true. It's always interested me in my study of the mystery school by firing this legend of Lucifer always popping up. Something that fell to earth from the sky and imparted knowledge to man which they named Lucifer or Satan and the source of the God of the Bible said you're not supposed to have this knowledge. You don't need the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And that's caused this tremendous problems ever since. And nobody really knows what it was that really happened back then. Everybody's asked to take the different interpretations of the different religious schools as an article of faith. And I'm not making judgment on any one of them and your religion and my religion doesn't have anything to do with this conversation. And I don't want to get into that but it appears that somewhere in history something happened that man who didn't think before began to think for himself and discovered how to drill plants and build cities to protect themselves from each other and animals and make weapons and forge metal out of rock and all kinds of things. One of the things that has always impressed me and I'm never able to verbalize how impressed I am by this but my great grandmother Grandma Vance came across the United States in a covered wagon. She didn't have plumbing. She had to pump water up from a well when they had a well or get it from a stream or on a river. Her first home was a sod house on the prairie in West Texas. She lived through Indian wars and saw several of her neighbors killed by wild Apache Indians who to them they didn't consider themselves wild. They were civilized and here we were taking their land and they're trying to keep their land. I was narrow-minded of them. Very. But anyway before she died she had seen all of the technology up to including her development of 177 and had flown in the sky. Now this to me is absolutely beyond my wildest beings. I don't I can't even imagine how she was able to cope with the transition from where she came from to where she ended up and still have any kind of modicum of sanity left. But what you're saying is that technology is moving so fast it's like a geometric progression or something. There's no time that we know of in human history that things have changed technically as fast as they are now and to go on from that if this continues for just another hundred years there's no way of imagining again if we don't blow ourselves up or overpopulate or do something dreadful but we today can't really grasp what the world could be like in a hundred years. That's correct and I think that was one of the main themes of the movie 2001. I think Arthur C. Clark was trying to tell us that our technology is reaching the point where maybe we can't control it and that was signified by the whole battle between the astronauts and the computer. How? The astronauts represented in a microcosm humanity and how represented the sum total of man's technology and how was out of control. That was a wonderful movie. It was a tremendously wonderful movie and it had a lot more in it than just that that you don't have time to directly. I was really impressed by the thinking behind that and I grasped it immediately when I was watching the movie but I was not impressed by the solution which was to unplug how. And that led to supposedly in Arthur C. Clark's mind a paradigm shift in the consciousness of humanity and the birth of the new man which was signified by the fetus floating in space. I thought it was unfortunate they had to take him apart two by two. If they ever do build a computer that good I would hope they'd be a little off and on switch. But there was a real warning there I think that maybe we need to heed because I know that in most of the technologies now it is almost impossible for any person to understand the whole extent of it. So you have people specializing in small fields which means that nobody really knows the whole overall picture. And that could very well be used to get people to build something in product which could be used to the detriment of mankind. And none of the people who are building the various parts would actually realize what it was going to be used for. It's a very good point and that's not at all impossible. Yeah, I agree with you. What do you think about the theory that this whole thing might be a manipulation? And the next few terrestrials are not viewing that. Well, now this is what you've been talking about recently and I find that a very intriguing theory. For quite a while I got halfway to where you seem to be and I was thinking we're always talking about how the government is trying to suppress UFO information. First of all there's a problem there because if they're real space people why are they always going to land where the government can grab them before hardly ever and anybody sees them, you know, I mean they could do it better than that if they really wanted to try. So there's something wrong to begin with but you know they make a pretty good case that here you know if it wasn't for the government secrecy we would know the truth and why can the government do this to it. And then I got thinking what if it were just the other way around that they're planting these stories and they want us to think they're space people even though there aren't any. but I stopped right there and never got to where you did because I couldn't do the second part. What reason would they have? What could be worse than being invaded from another planet? You see why would they make up something as scary as that? You know to hide what? I couldn't get to the what? But you come with a plausible answer in a certain way. So I won't say I agree with you tentatively which is a polite way of saying I don't know. Well you see I never considered this. And when I was exposed to information when I was attached to Austin News and so I took it at face value as being real and never dreamed that maybe I was being used to disseminate information to help build a threat that didn't exist. Until in my research I'm going back through history trying to find reference to UFOs in history and I came across documents of which I thought was very interesting of the Japanese Imperial Delegation that came to the United States in 1917. And there was a speech made by John Dewey who's touted as the father of our failed education system today and he's supposed to be a great man but anybody to me who father is a failure is not a great man. And our education system certainly failed. If John Dewey is the perpetrator of it then he's a failure. Period. He's not great in my book. But he made a speech and the first sentence in his speech to Prime Minister Ashiki of the Japanese Imperial Delegation was this. Quote, Someone once told me that the best way to unite all humanity in a one world government and do away with war forever is if we were attacked by some other species from some other planet. Unquote. And I was dumbstruck. Unquote. It was this. Somebody had hit me upside the head with a two by four and that's what it was. It was a mental two by four that shook my thinking around and put it in a different perspective that I'd never considered before. But if these people, these elites who are behind the scenes with their influence and their money and their power can really make things happen, what a one world government. What better way to get people to cooperate with them than to present the earth with an enemy. Whether it is this or not, the average Joe on the street could never ever realize the time in his life where he could authenticate it or disprove it. Because he would have to trust that the government was telling him the truth because he can't go into outer space and see for himself. Whether it is something there or not. That's right. Well, Reagan made, what, three or four different statements? Six. Six. Yeah. And who was it? Khrushchev at that time? Or Garner-Horbiton? Garner-Horbiton made a similar statement. Yes. And to say it once would be reasonable because it's not a strange thing really to say, but to say it a number of times so people will remember it makes you kind of wonder. It's extremely unusual for a president to say anything twice. They never do that unless it's an extreme emergency opinion or they want you to get at a particular point. There's no pressure. Well, it's time for a break, folks. Stand by. Don't go away. We'll be right back after this short pause. I also found reference to the same thing, a report called The Report from Lerner Mountain, which is questionable as to the authenticity, but there is no question as to the genius within its authorship. Whoever wrote it was a genius and was definitely spending a good deal of time contemplating the possibility of permanent world peace. What's the name of this? The Report from Iron Mountain. Supposedly it was a group of people hired by the government at the think tank, and the first place they met was a corporate records repository underground, a solid ground, called Iron Mountain. What year was it? This was back in the 60s. And the name of the book is the possibility or probability, the desirability and probability of permanent peace, the Report from Iron Mountain. And the whole study of this book is what is the desirability and what is the possibility of permanent peace ever on this earth? And the outcome of the whole book was that, well, to have permanent peace, instead of fighting amongst each other, we must present the earth with an enemy. And the enemy could be pollution. Yeah. The enemy could be war. The enemy could be war. And you could build a world army of anti-war warriors. Yeah. Who would spend their whole time inspecting to make sure that nobody's making weapons and that nobody was gearing up for war and stuff like that. In other words, it presented all kinds of scenarios for an enemy for the human race. And one of them, one of them was an artificial threat from outer space. And it even postulated that some of the harder to explain flying saucer incidents in recent years, recent being when the book was written, could have been experiments along its own. Now, considering the rash of flying saucer movies and incidents back in the 50s that seemed to coincide with each other, and the day the earth stood still, which was this man bringing this messy joke fake of peace, you know, all of this seems to fit together. And to me, it has more validity than probably anything else, although I'm not ruling out the possibility of extraterrestrials or time travel, because one of the very real possibilities is if this is real, then it could be us engineering or re-engineering, if you will, our own future. What do you think the objections consist of? That's the thing I have the most trouble with. And I guess it would be true of whichever of the contactees are sincere. I think a lot of them are, in some sense, making it up. But the ones who are not making it up, and then the vast majority of the abductees, who I don't think are consciously making it up, So here you've got people who are probably no crazier than most of us. They're not crazy. That's not the answer. And they seem to be sincere, and they can probably pass lie detection tests and all that. And yet what they're saying is, to me, ludicrous. I can't get beyond that. It doesn't make sense in any of several ways. What the heck is going on? I'm asking you, because I'm having trouble with it. Well, Jim, I don't know any more than anybody else does. I will tell you this, that there is some reality there, because these people sincerely believe that they're telling the truth. Yeah. And they're all telling the same story, and they don't know each other. Right down to very small details. But this really bothers me, because the story is too much the same, and it smacks of a marine control operation where everybody is given the same story to tell, and somehow this is repressing their mind, and is brought into their memory by some artificial stimulus, physical stimulus, at some point in the future. I would imagine, isn't there a way, or couldn't there soon be a way, which means that somebody like the government could already have it, of meaning a movie, so to speak, directly into your mind? It is. It's already been there. I would assume so. I mean, so it doesn't have to be space people doing that. No. Martin Cannon, I think you said you have a problem with him, but whatever, I've corresponded with him, and he's the one, you know, who goes by the theory that the government is doing this. The problem I have with Martin Cannon is a total and complete emotional wreck. When he really does legitimate research, he does good legitimate research. I could believe something like that quicker than I could believe that space people are doing it. And all this genetic stuff sounds like a Freudian nightmare to me. I mean, real creatures from another planet, which might be 100,000 years ahead of us or a million years, how come they're only about 20 or 50 years ahead of us, and how come they're doing a little bit better than us in the genetic area but have to do all of these crazy experiments and all. If they're no more advanced than that, I don't know how they ever got here. Therefore, I don't think they are here. Well, he should force us to accept something that we were going to reject as being desirable and legitimate. You see, to me, it fits in right in perfectly with the blonde hair, blue-eyed, beautiful men and a big cluster of beautiful women who step off of these saucers saying they're from Venus and bringing us the message of Karl Marx. Well, I'd rather have them doing that than to have these ghastly little grays. You see, we didn't have any grays until probably the last 10 years. And in the early days, you know, we were talking how I started way back, it was simpler because almost all of these contactees that were around, and I met some of them in Giant Rock, California and elsewhere, and they all told a different story because they'd all been somewhere else, and they never took to the same place. But there were similarities that ran through them, and I always felt being sort of a liberal sort, even if there isn't a word of truth to it, what they're saying is harmless, it's nice, it's peace and love and kindness, and it was sort of the pre-hippie era, you know. And I thought, well, you know, let them say it, and at least they're being nice, and perhaps there is something ultimately behind it. Now, you've got more evil going on than good, I mean, from what we're talking about and reading about. Well, this is the building of the trap. And it's also telling us, and giving us two messages, hey, we're being threatened, and hey, we may have a friend out there. So it's the old bad guy, good guy, routine. Well, that's what matters. You see, you, I think, are a little bit more biblical than I, and you see the world as a fight between good and evil, and to an extent, who could say that it's not? But I get suspicious when I see space people who have all of our failings. Some of them are real good, and some of them are real evil, and some you're not sure about. And so they're just as messed up as we are, and again, we are projecting our own hang-ups, so to speak, onto these creatures, if indeed they exist. And that makes me awfully suspicious. Well, it does me, too. One of the things that I get so upset about is, especially these people, some of them in the age community, come to me all covered with fluff, and say, oh, you shouldn't get so upset about this, you shouldn't worry about this UFO thing, you shouldn't worry about the New World Order, because the Benevolent Space Brothers are going to come and save us. And to me, that's the height of folly. It doesn't make any sense at all, even if there were any Benevolent Space Brothers. Why in the world would they save us? Exactly. And number two, if we're making such a mess of our own world, who in the world would want to take us back to their world so that we can do the same there, unless we were in chains? You know? And so that really, really, I have a real problem with that. I also have the problem with the concept that some people like John Lee are saying that they're sucking our blood and they're coming here to eat us. I don't believe that either. I think that we're responsible for whatever is happening on this earth, and I don't think anybody else has got their little finger mixed in it. We can't push our own failures onto a possibly mythical other realm or race. I think we're going to have to deal with this earth by ourselves, or at least make that assumption. I don't care. It's just like looking to gods. These space people are gods and they're devils, and I'd rather operate without gods or devils as far as conduct is concerned. And science is something else. Science will tell us someday what, if anything, is behind. is, you know, behind all of this. I think there is a psychic realm. I think that they indicated earlier. I think there are things. I've had a few experiences myself. I guess almost everybody has things that you can't explain in the usual five senses, you know. There's something going on. I think there's an overlap between the human mind, between the psychic, and whatever there is to this space business. But what it is, I don't know. But I think there is something very important that science is missing. And someday, as I said before, we might find out. Well, I can't, you know, the politics of it is one thing, but I can't just automatically write it all off that way. I don't think you do either. There may be something real going on beside all of this political thing. Well, I think you're under something, because for some time now, I've been toying with the possibility that somehow science and religion are going to merge at some point. And that is going to form some kind of explanation to a lot of the things that bother us about this and many other things in the world. I think at some point in our history, the two were loaded and came apart. And for a long time, maybe didn't even exist, at least in the science, a lot of it during the dark ages. Well, I think astrology was astronomy in the beginning. They were the same. And then they split. And now they're quite different. I mean, I think astrology, in my opinion, nonsense, and you can't say the same for the other because it worked. I'm even seeing articles now that are saying that science and religion are going to make a reconciliation sometime in the future. And that must be way down the line because, you know, religions, how they have specific codes that seem to be antisocial and their implications, I can't imagine. Well, I think there's always going to be a hard core extreme fundamentalism and everything. And like I said before, I'm not making judgments on this either way. I try not to do that because anybody who begins in the judgments of either politics or religions will soon find themselves up to their neck in the honey bucket where, oh, if you've ever been to Japan, you know what that is. So I try not to do it. I try to look at opinions. I try to look at articles. I try to do research. I try to put struggles together without criticizing anyone for whatever they believe either in religious or political good. You see, I don't care. I really am a constitutionalist. It's okay to me, although I may not believe it and I may have problems about being friends with someone who worshipped the devil, so to speak, that I would fight for their right to do it as long as in their worship of the devil they were not hurting anybody else. And if I had a chance to sit down to them, I'd certainly try to talk them out of it. But their right to do it I would never dispute. It's when they hurt somebody else by exercising their right that things have to stop. Well, as I've told you, Bill, and I'll say it again, I find you the most interesting person at these conventions because whether I agree with you or not, every time I go to one of your things you're expressing, new ideas. And I'm a pretty big thinker, I think, since you've come up with a lot of things that I hadn't put together before in the same way, and then I think, well, that doesn't sound reasonable in this case, or that's something I might want to think about or learn more about in a different case. So it's not the same old jazz at these conventions, most of it. I mean, why am I here instead of looking down in somebody's workshop right now? Because, well, the pool is neutral, but, I mean, there's people speaking right now in this hotel and telling amazing stories. And I look at the program and I'm not even interested in going down to hear them. And it's a lot of repetition and leading to the same sorts of conclusions. You, as they say, put things together in new ways. And I find it very interesting. Obviously, other people do. You wouldn't be getting as much attention. None of that is meant to imply that I agree with you. Well, thank you, Jim. Ray Barker was a great friend of mine, but no one ever felt that he was telling the truth, but at least of all, he was in the field of the same school of thought, you might say, as Ray Palmer, who was also an entertainer and a wonderful guy. And the successor to all of that, funny enough, is our friend Timothy Green, exactly. He does today what those men did in their era, and he's doing it quite successfully. Well, I really like him because he's honest. He's an American capitalist. But if he did the market, he'll feel that market. He admits he's a promoter, and I can say this because I have the poster at home. He was the producer of a porn film a few years ago. Driller, I think was the name. It was a takeoff on thriller. I got it back there. And, you know, his name's right on the poster. And once I asked him, you know, how can you do porn on the one side and New Age on the other? You know, isn't this kind of contradictory? And his answer was very simple. He says, I give them what they want. That's right. That's exactly right. And he's an honest promoter. You can't ask for any more than that. Everything that I've ever done, when he asked me to come and speak, and he promotes the thing and puts it all up, it's always been in the handshake. He has never tried to ever, ever take advantage of me. He's always provided exactly what I need when I need it. And, you know, that's something that supposedly went out in the last century. All right. Most people, you wouldn't dare. You wouldn't dare even dream of doing business with him or the handshake. Well, I've known him, you know, for over 25 years. Actually, he was my advertising manager is what it was at Software News. I had an office in New York City in the late 60s. And when he first got in the field, he came and worked for me on a salary. I mean, I had actual paid people in this office. and then I sort of ended it around 1970 and then he went on and stayed in New York City and eventually inherited some money and he did what he's doing now and he does it quite well. Yes, he does. Where do you think this is all going to take us, Jim? What do you continue for the future? What all does he mean? Well, let me try it this way. You know, I didn't know Dr. Hynek awfully well, but I knew him fairly well and he seemed to be friendly toward me and he was a smear and non-subscriber and he told me and I'm sure many, many other people what his motive and all of what he did was he wanted to learn the truth in his lifetime and the poor man died of brain cancer as some of your people will know and quite obviously he did not learn the truth in his lifetime and in certain circles of science I guess he made a fool of himself and there were people in the field that think he was too conservative and others he was going off the deep end toward the end and so many people come along now that knew Hynek better than they ever did know Hynek and there's one lady I can't think of her name as a story of his having seen top secret documents and you can't ask him whether that ever happened the point is I'm not going to learn the truth in my lifetime either and so I'm kind of disappointed in that way so I just would become the amateur sociologist and I enjoy doing what I'm doing here just carousing with people that I've known and hopefully learning something new once in a while but it's not that I'm all that smart but I don't care much at least invention but personally I people keep waiting for the government to make a big announcement oh yeah I've been listening to that since 1954 I think it's a perfect way to keep people hanging on the hook and it seems to work very well but I think even if the government were to make an announcement we'd be absolutely fools to believe what they told us and I don't think we would know the truth even then and even if it was the truth I don't think any of us would believe it do you? Well I agree you pretty well got it you know I mean I don't believe much of what Bush says and if he made a announcement like that I'm not sure I'd believe or either you know why would I just suddenly change my whole attitude about the man I will tell you a little secret that I've never told anybody I called Jay out of her and he came to talk to him one time and we had a pleasant car he didn't know who I was and we never met personally but we had a nice conversation on the phone and at one point I asked him point blank I said what do you think all this means what is what is the sum total of all of this and what he told me to do he said read the books on theosophy and what did he mean and that's the point where I began my research in ministry schools I wonder why you say that I don't know it's puzzled me ever since and now he's dead so I can't go back and ask him well as I say legends have grown up about him and I think some of it is kind of tacky you know any famous person has people that know him a lot better than he knows them you know it's uninduling you know but I was Dr. Hynek's right hand man you know that kind of thing the person that comes to mind first is Willie Smith Dr. Willie Smith you know him at all he's an arrogant gentleman and since we're on the air I can't make it any stronger than that I can't tell you what I really think but I've had some trouble with him and you get him Jim on my show you can say whatever you want as long as it doesn't fall under the term of obscenity alright but well libel it doesn't have to be obscene you know slander is what they're doing not libel but it doesn't have to be obscene to be slander don't really have to worry about it yourself because I have no property so anybody who will get absolutely nothing and I invite them to run to the courts until their face turns blue they still won't get anything because I don't have anything well Willie Smith if you listen to him you know he was going to take over all of Hynek's files and I forget what Smith calls his data face thing I can't think of the name at the minute but he was you know the heir apparent to Hynek but he's the only one that knows this I never heard Hynek mention it and a lot of other people say that Smith is making this up but again we can't check with Hynek people like that really annoy me I know what you mean because I met four people who were personal assistants to J.L. and Hynek and I have no way of knowing if any were or worked but that's exactly the kind of thing that I mean and one of those people a lady claims that Hynek was invited to a base in California an air base I guess and part of the story I like is he's walking along the hall either I guess this lady must have been there with him or she wouldn't have seen it or whatever and there's some officers walking down the hall ahead of Hynek one of them drops this folder see and he doesn't bend over to pick it up so you have to take it for granted that he did it on purpose so Hynek comes up to the folder as he walks behind the guy and he wonders whether he's supposed to pick it up and apparently he is so he does pick it up and then it's got all of his pictures of the craft and all the good stuff is there I haven't seen that folder but it's out there somewhere sounds like the same stuff that was you know Linda Howe and me and many other people went through I personally I think that in fact I know no other if this is real and if it's really top secret no other top secret project in the history of top secret projects has had and contained a bucket with so many holes in it I mean the bucket is leaking like a sieve and they're all intentional and I know they're intentional and nobody for instance what's the guy Graham Lee Graham Lee Graham gets some of William Moore's Majestic 12 stuff and passes it around at the aircraft plant where he works at and then all of a sudden here you got the security people sitting him down and questioning him and he said he got it from Bill Moore but they never did investigate Bill Moore now that's to convince Lee Graham that it's authentic material but they don't give a damn about where it really came from because the whole purpose of the operation was to convince Lee Graham that it was authentic or else William Moore would be in jail right now well I I mean all these years you know going all the way back there's all of these ex-servicemen who have seen a certain hangar or you know they were part of the team that was carrying a body or saw something loaded onto a truck or they were here or they were there they never have a photograph only drawings and their own memory and they never have a piece of metal that they chopped off or something there's never any proof there's an awful lot of people telling some of the stories and you can get carried away with it but after 40 years I say come on I don't know why they're saying it but they're not proving it well I think I think maybe in maybe not all of these cases but many of these cases I think that what these people are saying is the truth and I think that they were set up to see these things so that they would go talk about it and they were intentionally deprived of having any proof so that they could never substantiate it because I think that behind this is some effort to manipulate the people of the world into something right now it appears to be a one world government coming together as one humanity to face this external threat but we can't prove that either except that that's where this is going to ultimately lead us if they can make us think collectively all of us that he's a real because that's all we have to do is make us believe that whether they're benevolent or not we can't take that chance we have to form together for our mutual defense if they're real that's true one other point on that other thing and you and I were talking about this the other day if a guy has no need to know and I know that much about security it's based on need to know so in some of these cases there's a sergeant or something he's standing out on duty and then a friend of his comes and says oh we've got a saucer in this hangar over here would you like to come take a look at it I mean it's not incredible that's why I believe that these people are being set up and I don't believe these people are lying I think they're telling the truth and what they're saying happens and really happened but what they may have looked at was not really a saucer oh it's so easy to simulate a saucer or an alien body sure there's an alien body take a baboon and cut off its tail do a little constructive reconstructive surgery on its ears and eyes and shave it and you've got a grave well you know there's an alien body on the back cover of my book which was printed by Beckley unfortunately the alien body turns out as other people discovered it's a wax dummy that was on display in Montreal Canada in the early 80s and so Tim in deference to the expose said that in the next edition he's going to change the back cover I said I don't care I said you know I enjoy selling the book I tell people that I didn't write it was ghost written for me years ago it's a story there but anyway you can put anything you want on the back cover I'm no more embarrassed than I would be otherwise so leave the fake alien put a new back cover I don't care you know it's all the same to me well we've got about a minute and a half left Jim can you sum up and just sort of what you've got a minute and a half what would you say to millions of people who are going to listen to this broadcast on shortwave worldwide all over the world well I'd say keep an eye on this subject there's something to it there's something interesting here keep an open mind which means you know you don't have to believe all of what anybody says but there is something apparently going on and as I have indicated it seems to be beyond our present knowledge as far as science is concerned and we'll hope that we'll learn more about it and it won't be easy and it won't be soon but meanwhile it's a fascinating mystery you know I let me put it this way the human mind wants answers that's why you have religion you have a subject where there are no answers and you invent them if you have to and that's why people form a belief solid serious belief in a subject like this it has to be this it has to be that it's that gives them an answer and if they're happy I mean that's fine with me but it doesn't mean that it's the answer just because it's their answer so it's not that simple you got to face the fact that at a given point in human history there are things that we don't understand yet and we can just hope for the best thank you Jim well folks I told you that that would be a good interview and it was everybody has a different viewpoint on the origin and the real story behind UFOs all I can tell you is that I've discovered that there is a secret hidden technology and some of that technology at least is owned by the United States government and is flown from a super secret test site in the state of Nevada called Groom Dry Lake or Area 51 I've been out there many times and have videotaped these craft in the air flying and they do things that absolutely defy the laws of physics as we know them but we may not really know the real laws of physics maybe they perfected a unified field theory and really have plugged gravity into the equation if that's true then we may be being set up in fact we may have been being set up since the end of World War II when they captured German technology along the lines of disk-shaped flying craft in order to create an artificial alien threat from outer space to bring them out the formation of a one world government where humanity would be willing to give up whatever is needed in order to face that threat think about it folks because I think that's what's really happening although I can't explain all UFO sightings and some of them could possibly be extraterrestrial but I think if the TV set is broken it's absolutely foolish to go to the moon to try to get it repaired and if we see something flying in our atmosphere it's equally foolish to go to Andromeda to find the answer to it so folks until next time I really have enjoyed being with you tonight tomorrow night Darlene Cheryl's going to be here talking about fluoridation in water absolutely fantastic show don't miss it good night and God bless you all so thank you Thank you.